HuggyU2

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Flydafe

Those are your standards if I am not mistaken correct? If not please list the FAA regulation or regulations that have these different opinions of a qualified applicant. Last time I checked you must be ATP certified to operate as a crew member of a 121 operation and to fly an aircraft that needs a type rating you have to pass that too in order to get typed in the plane. With a 121 carrier the applicant who is qualified by holding his or her ATP rating will be trained and checked. They pass those standards then they are an airline pilot. What is the issue that many have with this process? Why is there so much fear that the standards will crumble. Aren’t there case studies of “highly qualified “ pilots that had terrible accidents? I think the most important aspect of our operations is that both pilots participate in the safe operation of the aircraft and use good crm to mitigate any threats trapping them before they become undesired aircraft states.

Flydafe

I don’t care what level of qualified a person might be in real life. Don’t have a college degree and put your app in with an airline that requires a degree and you will not trigger the algorithm to tag your app. On paper you are just an applicant and unless HR looks at your resume or gets you in for a zoom interview your Chuck Yeager moments will not get told in the TMAAT format.

Oletimer

Nope, those are not my standards.

The issue with the discrimintory hiring practice process is that points appear to be awarded for minorities with preferential hiring going to minorities over other, more qualified applicants. Thus, if you watched the news the case was properly made that there are two sets of standards. One for minorities and one for other...more qualified candidates.

By the read....and I say that in gest. But, by reading your silliness I take it you are NOT a professional pilot.

Time, Speed, and distance and the entire operation is a major jump in thinking and in tempo. Without getting too basic...well, that's maybe what I need to do. Ok, so I will go basic.

An ATP has nothing to do with what we are talking about. It's a certificate. I had an ATP when I was flying a Bonanza. I wasn't ready for a part 121 job flying a turbo jet. I needed something in between. I actually needed three EXPERIENCE based steps in between. I needed time flying twin engine airplanes. I also needed time flying turbo props and i needed an opportunity to be a Captain flying turbo props. I was trained and checked continually doing 135 check rides for about six years flying in the smaller operations that served as stepping stones for me both professionally and in honing my skills. This gave me the opportunity to learn from errors and become a better pilot. When I felt I was ready and "mature" as a pilot, I started applying. I didn't put in my resume until I had over 4000 hours and two type ratings to major airlines.

I was right in the middle of my class when I was hired. I say a few pilots with 3500 (ish) hours, and a few with time as high as 7000 hours.

I can lecture you about "case studies." Which one would you like? Not applicable. We're discussing the difference between highly qualified and marginally qualified applicants and why it's OK to discriminate against one demographic over another as well as lowering the bar for minorities.

It's a big deal. if white guys still want a job in a reasonable time frame they will need more "bonus points" in the interview?? Rhetorical question. Get a second or third degree. Get more ratings. It takes a lot of time to get an extra thousand PIC. So, maybe the white guys all need to go out and get hot air balloon ratings or some other silliness to compete against the lesser qualified minorities. It's a big deal. it may take the average white guy an extra 2 to 4 years in order to be able to compete against a minority hire. The hiring wave may come and go and leave them behind. When the next wave comes, it may be 10 years.

How many 17 year Regional co-pilots are there out there still looking for a job. Those people got over 12,000 hours and still trying. How many of them aren't female or minorities? They been paying their dues for a long long time. Likely longer than anyone in UAL HR has even had a drivers license.

I know you are not a professional pilot, otherwise your point of view and opinion wouldn't be so obtuse.

biggun

The new hiring matrix....

White guy: ATP, 5 type ratings, 2 college degrees, 10,000 hours: marginally qualified. Not interviewed, and therefore not hired.
Minority: ATP, no type ratings, 1 degree, 1500 hours: highly qualified. Interviewed and hired.

I guess we can reduce that 1500 hours for the minority candidate if: internship, LGTBQ status, or son of Starley.

Hey, I heard one of our special hires needed 120 hours of IOE. That's a bunch of work for the check airman. Good luck out there and stay safe.

oldmako

Your gross oversimplification of the process is duly noted. And I submit that It runs counter to the majority of pilots hired over the last 30 years. Yes, people with minimal quals DO get airline jobs. Occasionally. But there were none of them in my new hire class where the depth of experience was staggering. Back then (most of) those with minimum qualifications wouldn't get anywhere near Quebec Street unless they were driving the DoubleTree van.

Thor

The only shade that needs to thrown in this thread at HR’s mix of the day. None of these changes are being driven by line pilots.

United has a long history of unique hiring practices that make me scratch my head. I’ve flown with former military guys that shouldn’t be allowed near an airport and former interns that were among the finest pilots I’ve seen. My takeaway is that: title does not dictate behavior. And the corollary: you’re only as good as now.

So, my guess is this will be like the 1980’s consent decree - a lot of effort and maybe some added diversity. What I know is every one of them will be junior to me!

I also know that probation lasts for a year. Anyone that can’t do the job will probably a.) fail the interview - which still includes a line captain. b.) fail training, or c.) fail to make it off probation.

Every line Captain that flys with a new hire has a duty to mentor and coach, but also to be honest in evaluating piloting skills. If this thing really is ab initio, new hires will have a head start on SOP, be sure you know yours

Flydafe

Ok so there are no FAA regs that segregate applicants who hold an ATP and type ratings in to different categories based on qualifications. Yet there are FAA regs and standards that we all had to meet to obtain our ratings from private on through ATP and type checks. Furthermore we have to complete proficiency checks or whatever your airline calls your ground and sim checks. Although they might be AQP they still have to meet stringent FAA guidelines.

what makes many of you on this diversity thread think that these things will cease to exist when the Aviate academy kids start flying?

I get the whole “they are taking my seat” and discriminatory hiring claim but as posted earlier Captain Marlon Green had to take his actual discriminatory fight all the way to the Supreme Court just to get a job. I understand that many of us were not alive during that time but there was and is..judging from the reactions on social media over this Aviate academy announcement..a long-standing issue of racism/discriminatory in the aviation industry. Looking at the AA applicant pool data that someone posted there are thousands of Caucasian males in the categories of qualified applicants. Could it be that the 100 or so jobs that minority men and women get are just mere drops in the bucket when it comes to The sheer numbers on that document that was shared? Let’s be honest.. there simply are not enough seats available for everyone on that AA data sheet. No one is taking anyone’s job. You don’t have to have five master’s degrees and a hot air balloon rating. You just have to be lucky or rely on nepotism, networking, or plain old brown nosing to get noticed now that HR has taken the reigns.

lastly..I am amazed by your story of how you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps to be a pilot at big U if that is where you are. Wherever you are I bet you do your job really well and are safe. That’s what these young FO’s need when they are fresh out of the Cessna transitioning to the jet...a great mentor. My story is not as complex as yours by far. I came straight from a Cessna 172 with a Garmin 486(I believe) and Sirius XM weather that was really delayed but gave off Sirius radio stations..lol. I flew that thing for a solid year got about 1300 hrs doing patrol and went straight to the regionals. Got my type ratings and put out of business due to covid.

My progression through my flight training was greatly aided by flying my desktop simulator. The sim to me is always harder than the real thing.

Flydafe

It’s a new day my man. Just a few years ago the regionals couldn’t find enough applicants. Technology has really made the process more efficient. These kids are at home flying virtual airlines in A380s and triples in Virtual as well as augmented reality. Had one show me how to start the gpu. He was in his early teens. He didn’t know the flows but knew the General concepts. For them the whole set up is simplified because they were born in to technology. All us old heads need to do is mentor them when they sit in that right seat. Someone did it for us. We are tradesmen

hummingbear

Since this conversation keeps drifting to the idea of hiring minority pilots with reduced criteria, it bears repeating that the initiative in question is about finding minority candidates to include in the Aviate program that trains prospective candidates from zero to the career stage so that they arrive at that point equally qualified among their peers.

Hiring a woman with a wet ATP & poor flying skills over a dude w/ multiple engineering degrees & left seat heavy time has nothing to do with the Aviate diversity goal; but it is a much easier position to attack.