Will UAL Really hire this year?
03-07-2012 | 01:31 PM
#31
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Joined: Oct 2009
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From: B756 FO
What he meant to say was... "I have no clue who the new United will take, but here is my best assumption..." I know that DL and US have hired zero TPIC time guys, which leads me to believe anyone that meets the bare minimums that United posts has a shot. I dont think anyone would be shocked if LOR's are critical no matter what your times are.
03-07-2012 | 02:30 PM
#33
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Joined: Oct 2006
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From: 737
What he meant to say was... "I have no clue who the new United will take, but here is my best assumption..." I know that DL and US have hired zero TPIC time guys, which leads me to believe anyone that meets the bare minimums that United posts has a shot. I dont think anyone would be shocked if LOR's are critical no matter what your times are.
03-07-2012 | 04:36 PM
#34
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,130
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From: B737 CAPT IAH
Hoss, the growing and shrinking was happening years Before the merger and continues because CAL has orders and new routes etc.. Until we get a combined list and JCBA, the company cannot spread the flying evenly amongst the two subsidiary. Our current contract will not allow them but so much flexibility with the block hour ratios. As far as staple,UA furloughed guys with recall rights to UA coming to L-CAL, I don't understand your point? Place them ahead of CAL guys on property. If those guys go back to L-UA, assuming a recall...where will most involuntary furloughs go...bottom of your list....as it should be. Why the difference?
You are absolutely correct on JCBA and ISL...as the real fix but of course, not everybody will be happy with that either
You are absolutely correct on JCBA and ISL...as the real fix but of course, not everybody will be happy with that either
Your post is a little bit of a shotgun, but I'll try to respond. As a Vol Furlough, if I had accepted a job offer at CAL, given both are ALPA, yes, I'd expect my DOH and longevity regarding all aspects of the offer. Simple pay adjustment doesn't truly reflect that seniority at UAL. Seniority should be much more than about pay. Not to degrade the pay of junior but rather to enhance the good things. You think it's okay for me to suck the bottom of the schedule when I've given way more to UCH than you probably have. Accept treatment as a NH when I was flying airplanes before your youngest FO was born. Give me a serious break.
As to invol UAL furloughs, the ISL will decide, but they've given way more than your most junior pilot has ever envisioned.
CAL guys have no idea really what UAL folks have been through. We obviously haven't lived your life either. Having said that, this is one company with regards to the operation even though the entities are divided.
Getting 12 year pay to pull gear for some "kid" by taking a CAL job offer isn't in my personal horizon. And, I left knowing the merger was going to happen by the obvious "right sizing" of the airline by parking UAL aircraft to ensure not having to deal with divesting assets to secure DOJ approval.
In a perfect world, we'd have a real union and a national seniority list. But, making the folks that took the "job offer" which should never be confused with a recall, start at the bottom of your list at what was UAL and now UCH subsidiary is wrong. Most of them have paid their "dues" well over the required amount.
No more wrong than any whipsaw action taken by the company regarding PS or any other issue in the TPA progression.
You see. Wrong is wrong. I left for many reasons. It doesn't mean I don't reserve my right to return.....on my terms. So while you see some pilot taking a position offered under the TPA as a gift to that individual, I see it as an insult given the conditions of the offer......and that pilot that takes said position is giving their service generating revenue to the new combined corporate entity. And, taking it up the arse at the same time.
So, in summary, as a Vol Furlough, I will not go to the bottom of UAL if recalled, nor to the bottom of the ISL whenever that comes. I will also never accept a job on the CAL side given your POS contract that has draconian work rules and to sit there watching you pontificate on issue x,y, or z, from your position of perceived dominance. I'll come back to my seniority number. It is mine and will equate to whatever the arbitration board decides after the JCBA is inked and the obvious ISL arbitration that comes after makes its final decision.
Frats,
Lee
03-07-2012 | 05:34 PM
#35
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Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Doing what you do, for less.
Something that makes you stand out would be being a check airman, being a chief pilot, having a good letter of recommendation or two, having a masters' degree, etc. Anything that sets you apart from the other thousands of well qualified and experienced RJ captains out there that have been waiting years to apply.
03-07-2012 | 06:26 PM
#38
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: Guppy driver
Slammer,
You see. Wrong is wrong. I left for many reasons. It doesn't mean I don't reserve my right to return.....on my terms. So while you see some pilot taking a position offered under the TPA as a gift to that individual, I see it as an insult given the conditions of the offer......and that pilot that takes said position is giving their service generating revenue to the new combined corporate entity. And, taking it up the arse at the same time.
So, in summary, as a Vol Furlough, I will not go to the bottom of UAL if recalled, nor to the bottom of the ISL whenever that comes. I will also never accept a job on the CAL side given your POS contract that has draconian work rules and to sit there watching you pontificate on issue x,y, or z, from your position of perceived dominance. I'll come back to my seniority number. It is mine and will equate to whatever the arbitration board decides after the JCBA is inked and the obvious ISL arbitration that comes after makes its final decision.
You see. Wrong is wrong. I left for many reasons. It doesn't mean I don't reserve my right to return.....on my terms. So while you see some pilot taking a position offered under the TPA as a gift to that individual, I see it as an insult given the conditions of the offer......and that pilot that takes said position is giving their service generating revenue to the new combined corporate entity. And, taking it up the arse at the same time.
So, in summary, as a Vol Furlough, I will not go to the bottom of UAL if recalled, nor to the bottom of the ISL whenever that comes. I will also never accept a job on the CAL side given your POS contract that has draconian work rules and to sit there watching you pontificate on issue x,y, or z, from your position of perceived dominance. I'll come back to my seniority number. It is mine and will equate to whatever the arbitration board decides after the JCBA is inked and the obvious ISL arbitration that comes after makes its final decision.
I certainly respect your views, and your seniority in this profession. I hope though that you and those holding similar views will not frown upon those of us who willingly, voluntarily, and dare I say in many cases cheerfully - accept an opportunity at sCAL to resume a flying career that has seen more than one serious interruption over the past 10+ years.
No, it is not a "gift". It is an opportunity. Like any career or business opportunity, all parties are wise to consider the relative benefits and costs. In this case, UCH's agreement to at least acknowledge my pay longevity, and honor my DOH relative to other sUAL pilots on their list is in my view reasonable, and enough for the time being. This serves MY interests, and in my belief does not detract from my brother and sister Legacy United pilot's careers or purposes.
I see this as an interim step toward restoration of my long term career path at a post-ISL United (Operated by Continental Airlines
) under an industry leading contract. If this position at sCAL were the end of the line, then yes, I would see this as a major and insulting bummer. However I feel that the greater likelihood is that a JCBA+SLI will get done eventually. In the meantime, I'd like a paycheck please.A couple of the posts in this thread seem to tread awfully close to suggesting that those who accept these positions at sCAL as a result of the TPA are undermining JCBA efforts, the career generally, or as you suggest - have a penchant for sodomization. I respectfully disagree.
Cheers,
Taco
2172/1437
03-07-2012 | 06:45 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 225
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From: EWR B737FO
Slammer,
Your post is a little bit of a shotgun, but I'll try to respond. As a Vol Furlough, if I had accepted a job offer at CAL, given both are ALPA, yes, I'd expect my DOH and longevity regarding all aspects of the offer. Simple pay adjustment doesn't truly reflect that seniority at UAL. Seniority should be much more than about pay. Not to degrade the pay of junior but rather to enhance the good things. You think it's okay for me to suck the bottom of the schedule when I've given way more to UCH than you probably have. Accept treatment as a NH when I was flying airplanes before your youngest FO was born. Give me a serious break.
As to invol UAL furloughs, the ISL will decide, but they've given way more than your most junior pilot has ever envisioned.
CAL guys have no idea really what UAL folks have been through. We obviously haven't lived your life either. Having said that, this is one company with regards to the operation even though the entities are divided.
Getting 12 year pay to pull gear for some "kid" by taking a CAL job offer isn't in my personal horizon. And, I left knowing the merger was going to happen by the obvious "right sizing" of the airline by parking UAL aircraft to ensure not having to deal with divesting assets to secure DOJ approval.
In a perfect world, we'd have a real union and a national seniority list. But, making the folks that took the "job offer" which should never be confused with a recall, start at the bottom of your list at what was UAL and now UCH subsidiary is wrong. Most of them have paid their "dues" well over the required amount.
No more wrong than any whipsaw action taken by the company regarding PS or any other issue in the TPA progression.
You see. Wrong is wrong. I left for many reasons. It doesn't mean I don't reserve my right to return.....on my terms. So while you see some pilot taking a position offered under the TPA as a gift to that individual, I see it as an insult given the conditions of the offer......and that pilot that takes said position is giving their service generating revenue to the new combined corporate entity. And, taking it up the arse at the same time.
So, in summary, as a Vol Furlough, I will not go to the bottom of UAL if recalled, nor to the bottom of the ISL whenever that comes. I will also never accept a job on the CAL side given your POS contract that has draconian work rules and to sit there watching you pontificate on issue x,y, or z, from your position of perceived dominance. I'll come back to my seniority number. It is mine and will equate to whatever the arbitration board decides after the JCBA is inked and the obvious ISL arbitration that comes after makes its final decision.
Frats,
Lee
Your post is a little bit of a shotgun, but I'll try to respond. As a Vol Furlough, if I had accepted a job offer at CAL, given both are ALPA, yes, I'd expect my DOH and longevity regarding all aspects of the offer. Simple pay adjustment doesn't truly reflect that seniority at UAL. Seniority should be much more than about pay. Not to degrade the pay of junior but rather to enhance the good things. You think it's okay for me to suck the bottom of the schedule when I've given way more to UCH than you probably have. Accept treatment as a NH when I was flying airplanes before your youngest FO was born. Give me a serious break.
As to invol UAL furloughs, the ISL will decide, but they've given way more than your most junior pilot has ever envisioned.
CAL guys have no idea really what UAL folks have been through. We obviously haven't lived your life either. Having said that, this is one company with regards to the operation even though the entities are divided.
Getting 12 year pay to pull gear for some "kid" by taking a CAL job offer isn't in my personal horizon. And, I left knowing the merger was going to happen by the obvious "right sizing" of the airline by parking UAL aircraft to ensure not having to deal with divesting assets to secure DOJ approval.
In a perfect world, we'd have a real union and a national seniority list. But, making the folks that took the "job offer" which should never be confused with a recall, start at the bottom of your list at what was UAL and now UCH subsidiary is wrong. Most of them have paid their "dues" well over the required amount.
No more wrong than any whipsaw action taken by the company regarding PS or any other issue in the TPA progression.
You see. Wrong is wrong. I left for many reasons. It doesn't mean I don't reserve my right to return.....on my terms. So while you see some pilot taking a position offered under the TPA as a gift to that individual, I see it as an insult given the conditions of the offer......and that pilot that takes said position is giving their service generating revenue to the new combined corporate entity. And, taking it up the arse at the same time.
So, in summary, as a Vol Furlough, I will not go to the bottom of UAL if recalled, nor to the bottom of the ISL whenever that comes. I will also never accept a job on the CAL side given your POS contract that has draconian work rules and to sit there watching you pontificate on issue x,y, or z, from your position of perceived dominance. I'll come back to my seniority number. It is mine and will equate to whatever the arbitration board decides after the JCBA is inked and the obvious ISL arbitration that comes after makes its final decision.
Frats,
Lee
Lee,
You forget that at least 50 percent of this merger includes L-CAL, its pilots and their seniority and CBA. What you did or flew or experienced, has no bearing on the L-CAL seniority list and vice versa wrt to L-UA. BTW, the agreement to offer to UA furloughs was agreed upon, to include seniority and pay by both MECs. FWIW..UA furloughs were given more benefits, than our own CAL guys that were recalled. You have a 747 and Bus Captain, pulling gear and getting paid at their last rate ( good for them) but to think a new hire to L-CAL should bypass current seniority system is ridiculous. My statement ref where an involuntary furlough would be placed if recalled to L-UA...the bottom, below active guys already on property, so why would he expect to go ahead of line holders, because of time at another carrier. Not sure why your MEC did not address the voluntary furlough issue, but suspect they knew it would be DOA with the CAL MEC and pilot group. we are operationally and legally separate pilot groups... which effectively was the situation when CAL/UA and ALPA agreed to hiring UA furloughs. As you stated, there is no national seniority list, so where is the precedence for such an aberration of seniority for those active on a list? Has L-UA in its history, ever hired furloughs from other carriers and placed them ahead of active pilots? Other airlines? The JCBA and ISL is the process and road ahead... the DOH concept as you allude too above, as a cure to all that endured, will not be the principle method if we are ever going to,integrate. As you know,.Timing is everything. In the 90s,UA was the place, and CAL just the opposite.... UA was growing, CAL barely kept head above the water. You were bringing on aircraft and hiring, CAL,not so much . Post 9/11 CAL hired and new orders for the past 7 years...UA has not. Not meant to slam, just a fact, Both companies have been on the bottom.... If the merger had happened in the 90s, with the scenario,mentioned above,and furloughed CAL guys offered a job to UA, i doubt very seriously you or MEC would support your present position of leapfrogging active pilots...because as you stated wrong is wrong. Don't assume guys at CAL have not suffered...multiple BKs, furloughs and 9/11...just like most of the industry and UA....some were TWA, AMR, and furloughed UA guys that got hired in the last decade...
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