SFO Base
08-16-2013 | 08:03 PM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
From: Captain
08-16-2013 | 08:10 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
Likes: 0
08-17-2013 | 08:37 AM
#73
Banned
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
From: next to chronic complainers...
We have the same thing at United. If someone was hired in 1995 as a flight attendant, then as a pilot in 1999 they get credit for those years for pass travel, etc, but they weren't mainline pilots until they started at mainline, so their actual seniority is based on that.
08-17-2013 | 09:11 AM
#74
Peace Love Understanding
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 0
From: Airbus
The only difference, is that XJT aka COEX pilots were hired as CAL pilots 1995 not FA. Just because they operated under Express doesn't change the fact that they were still CAL seniority pilots. The confusion comes when COEX pilots, while still at COEX, were intermingled with of the street pilot into CAL, and during transition period of followthrough to strictly of the street hiring. A similar situation exists in AA, and DAL, with AE and Comair, and Mesaba pilots. UA has never experienced followthrough contracts, and perhaps it may cause some confusion.
08-17-2013 | 09:13 AM
#75
SLI best wishes!
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
From: B767 Capt
The only difference, is that XJT aka COEX pilots were hired as CAL pilots 1995 not FA. Just because they operated under Express doesn't change the fact that they were still CAL seniority pilots. The confusion comes when COEX pilots, while still at COEX, were intermingled with of the street pilot into CAL, and during transition period of followthrough to strictly of the street hiring. A similar situation exists in AA, and DAL, with AE and Comair, and Mesaba pilots. UA has never experienced followthrough contracts, and perhaps it may cause some confusion.
08-17-2013 | 09:32 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
Likes: 0
The only difference, is that XJT aka COEX pilots were hired as CAL pilots 1995 not FA. Just because they operated under Express doesn't change the fact that they were still CAL seniority pilots. The confusion comes when COEX pilots, while still at COEX, were intermingled with of the street pilot into CAL, and during transition period of followthrough to strictly of the street hiring. A similar situation exists in AA, and DAL, with AE and Comair, and Mesaba pilots. UA has never experienced followthrough contracts, and perhaps it may cause some confusion.
SECTION 45 – MERGER AND FRAGMENTATION POLICY 4/30/09
d. The date of hire shall be the date upon which a pilot first appears upon the Company's payroll as a pilot and also begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations.
d. The date of hire shall be the date upon which a pilot first appears upon the Company's payroll as a pilot and also begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations.
The bigger clash (I think) is that the street hires are intermingled with these XJT pilots on the LCAL list and therefore placed beside them on the proposed SLI at the nearby XJT pilot's DOH rather than their own, increasing their seniority by years sometimes, certainly not the intent of merger policy. The other option would have been to rearrange LCALs seniority list to place XJT on it at their XJT DOH, something that has never been done except through litigation.
Of course LUAL looks at that and says if LCAL won't put XJT pilots at their original DOH on their own list, then why should they be placed at their original DOH on the integrated list. An obviously valid complaint. I suspect lawyers drove this from the start and lawyers are going to solve it in the end.
Last edited by APC225; 08-17-2013 at 09:47 AM.
08-17-2013 | 09:47 AM
#77
Peace Love Understanding
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 0
From: Airbus
And this was obviously the big sticking point in the SLI. Merger policy was changed to include longevity which for LUAL is very important at this point. However it also says that merger seniority starts when you're hired at that company as a pilot.XJT pilots were on the CAL company "payroll as a pilot" on their DOH at XJT. At least that's what their pay stubs say. To not argue for their integration at their XJT DOH would invite a lawsuit from this group.
The bigger clash (I think) is that the street hires are intermingled with these XJT pilots on the LCAL list and therefore placed beside them on the proposed SLI at the nearby XJT pilot's DOH rather than their own, increasing their seniority by years sometimes, certainly not the intent of merger policy. The other option would have been to rearrange LCALs seniority list to place XJT on it at their XJT DOH, something that has never been done except through litigation.
Of course LUAL looks at that and says if LCAL won't put XJT pilots at their original DOH on their own list, then why should they be placed at their original DOH beside more senior LUAL pilots on the integrated list. An obviously valid complaint. I suspect lawyers drove this from the start and lawyers are going to solve it in the end.
The bigger clash (I think) is that the street hires are intermingled with these XJT pilots on the LCAL list and therefore placed beside them on the proposed SLI at the nearby XJT pilot's DOH rather than their own, increasing their seniority by years sometimes, certainly not the intent of merger policy. The other option would have been to rearrange LCALs seniority list to place XJT on it at their XJT DOH, something that has never been done except through litigation.
Of course LUAL looks at that and says if LCAL won't put XJT pilots at their original DOH on their own list, then why should they be placed at their original DOH beside more senior LUAL pilots on the integrated list. An obviously valid complaint. I suspect lawyers drove this from the start and lawyers are going to solve it in the end.
08-17-2013 | 09:52 AM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
From: Captain
APC225, Not pointing you out but you said you went to XTJ while furloughed from CAL.
Question: Did you lose pilot seniority for that period of time or were you slotted in the XTJ list at your date of hire?
I assume your CAL seniority didn't change - correct?
Question: Did you lose pilot seniority for that period of time or were you slotted in the XTJ list at your date of hire?
I assume your CAL seniority didn't change - correct?
08-17-2013 | 10:02 AM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
Likes: 0
Yea, that IS the disconnect. But CAL and XJT had different seniority lists within the same company so the DOHs aren't chronological on the CAL list. XJT is placed on CAL list when they were supposed to go to mainline training (not when they actually started training but that's another story). The problem comes when merger policy says "on the Company's payroll" which XJT pilots were at their XJT DOH. They do get XJT DOH credit for some things like travel.
Last edited by APC225; 08-17-2013 at 10:24 AM.
08-17-2013 | 10:12 AM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
Likes: 0
Kept seniority but lost longevity in some areas. We lost that time for mainline pay. Relative position on CAL list didn't change. Street hires were slotted into XJT at our CAL DOH. Former XJT pilots were slotted into XJT at their original XJT DOH. So they were essentially accruing seniority on two lists at once and went back very senior. Don't know if that has ever done before. As I said in another post, the XJT union leadership was very bright and the pilots were quite unified and they made some agreements with the company and with the CAL pilots that protected them well, as they should have.
Last edited by APC225; 08-17-2013 at 10:29 AM.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
