Union Email pertaining to UPA extension
10-09-2015, 04:31 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Position: EWR 777 FO
Posts: 187
[QUOTE=Andy;1988458]Stop posting that garbage. Not going to happen. And there's enough lurking readers here who will do the bobblehead thing and start expecting your absurdly unrealistic target.
The inflation rate is less than 1% and you're expecting a 20+% pay raise? Current US Inflation Rates: 2005-2015 | US Inflation Calculator
Any further comments that I would direct toward you would require deletion by the moderators
According to the bureau of labor statistics inflation has averaged about 2.5 percent over the last decade. http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/HistoricalInflation.aspx
You can't just look at this year to date.
That said, the pay rate increase I would entertain depends on our gains in the other areas under discussion, but I don't think the guy you tore a new one above is too far off base. Just my opinion.
The inflation rate is less than 1% and you're expecting a 20+% pay raise? Current US Inflation Rates: 2005-2015 | US Inflation Calculator
Any further comments that I would direct toward you would require deletion by the moderators
According to the bureau of labor statistics inflation has averaged about 2.5 percent over the last decade. http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/HistoricalInflation.aspx
You can't just look at this year to date.
That said, the pay rate increase I would entertain depends on our gains in the other areas under discussion, but I don't think the guy you tore a new one above is too far off base. Just my opinion.
Last edited by Pro2nd; 10-09-2015 at 04:51 AM.
10-09-2015, 06:45 AM
#42
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Originally Posted by Thor
Granted the aircraft manufacturer landscape has changed since 2012, here's the question:
If the company comes to ALPA requesting relief on the type of jet in Section One and offers to buy a boatload of new jets in exchange for the pay raise and work rule adjustments, do you go for it?
Fast forward to Section 6 when UAL pilots are looking for significant changes to the CBA (i.e. all areas, not just 5 bullet points), what leverage exists if the company has already solved scope choke? I know I sound like a broken record, but there is nothing in the pilot CBA restricting the company from adding new narrow body jets now - nothing! Section One limits on future RJ flying present SIGNIFICANT value to UA pilots in terms of job security and retaining "our flying".
If the company comes to ALPA requesting relief on the type of jet in Section One and offers to buy a boatload of new jets in exchange for the pay raise and work rule adjustments, do you go for it?
Fast forward to Section 6 when UAL pilots are looking for significant changes to the CBA (i.e. all areas, not just 5 bullet points), what leverage exists if the company has already solved scope choke? I know I sound like a broken record, but there is nothing in the pilot CBA restricting the company from adding new narrow body jets now - nothing! Section One limits on future RJ flying present SIGNIFICANT value to UA pilots in terms of job security and retaining "our flying".
With regards to the Pay % being bantered, I'm sure we all have a number that we consider "minimum". For me, it's industry leading (including cargo carriers). We start there and go north. And this isn't a bad move by the company. With DAL, SWA, FEDEX, and AMR (me too in 2016) all coming due, they could force labor costs up at all these carriers by going early. Worked for DAL.
10-09-2015, 07:36 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,165
Originally Posted by Pro2nd
According to the bureau of labor statistics inflation has averaged about 2.5 percent over the last decade. Historical Inflation Rate- Annual Inflation rates from 1913 to the present |InflationData.com
You can't just look at this year to date.
That said, the pay rate increase I would entertain depends on our gains in the other areas under discussion, but I don't think the guy you tore a new one above is too far off base. Just my opinion.
You can't just look at this year to date.
That said, the pay rate increase I would entertain depends on our gains in the other areas under discussion, but I don't think the guy you tore a new one above is too far off base. Just my opinion.
Sure, we could get a 20% pay raise. As long as we're willing to give up a LOT of QOL benefits. For instance, cut the company's 401K contribution down to 5% and slash profit sharing. It's not hard to get a 20% pay raise, but the costs of that pay raise make it not worth the price we'll pay in other areas. Here's a thought - since I don't use the company medical benefits, let's reduce the company's subsidy - that'd be a win-win for me. I'm not serious about higher medical costs for pilots, but that illustrates another area where the company could recoup any outsized pay raise.
Sadly, you are bobbleheading in the belief that 20% pay raise is reasonable.
10-09-2015, 07:51 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Position: EWR 777 FO
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by Andy
Let's look at the inflation rate since the current contract was signed in 2012. And let's look at what other airline pay rates are. Asking for 20% less than 4 years after the previous contract is an overreach and not reality based. And let's not forget that annual pay increases above the inflation rate were built into the current contract.
Sure, we could get a 20% pay raise. As long as we're willing to give up a LOT of QOL benefits. For instance, cut the company's 401K contribution down to 5% and slash profit sharing. It's not hard to get a 20% pay raise, but the costs of that pay raise make it not worth the price we'll pay in other areas. Here's a thought - since I don't use the company medical benefits, let's reduce the company's subsidy - that'd be a win-win for me. I'm not serious about higher medical costs for pilots, but that illustrates another area where the company could recoup any outsized pay raise.
Sadly, you are bobbleheading in the belief that 20% pay raise is reasonable.
Sure, we could get a 20% pay raise. As long as we're willing to give up a LOT of QOL benefits. For instance, cut the company's 401K contribution down to 5% and slash profit sharing. It's not hard to get a 20% pay raise, but the costs of that pay raise make it not worth the price we'll pay in other areas. Here's a thought - since I don't use the company medical benefits, let's reduce the company's subsidy - that'd be a win-win for me. I'm not serious about higher medical costs for pilots, but that illustrates another area where the company could recoup any outsized pay raise.
Sadly, you are bobbleheading in the belief that 20% pay raise is reasonable.
Our 2012 contract was still very conservative to nurture the merger and protect the company from an uncertain economy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but our 2000 contract corrected for 2.5 percent inflation would put our top rate at around $350/hr.
10-09-2015, 08:38 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Captain
Posts: 1,561
Originally Posted by Andy
Let's look at the inflation rate since the current contract was signed in 2012. And let's look at what other airline pay rates are. Asking for 20% less than 4 years after the previous contract is an overreach and not reality based. And let's not forget that annual pay increases above the inflation rate were built into the current contract.
Sure, we could get a 20% pay raise. As long as we're willing to give up a LOT of QOL benefits. For instance, cut the company's 401K contribution down to 5% and slash profit sharing. It's not hard to get a 20% pay raise, but the costs of that pay raise make it not worth the price we'll pay in other areas. Here's a thought - since I don't use the company medical benefits, let's reduce the company's subsidy - that'd be a win-win for me. I'm not serious about higher medical costs for pilots, but that illustrates another area where the company could recoup any outsized pay raise.
Sadly, you are bobbleheading in the belief that 20% pay raise is reasonable.
Sure, we could get a 20% pay raise. As long as we're willing to give up a LOT of QOL benefits. For instance, cut the company's 401K contribution down to 5% and slash profit sharing. It's not hard to get a 20% pay raise, but the costs of that pay raise make it not worth the price we'll pay in other areas. Here's a thought - since I don't use the company medical benefits, let's reduce the company's subsidy - that'd be a win-win for me. I'm not serious about higher medical costs for pilots, but that illustrates another area where the company could recoup any outsized pay raise.
Sadly, you are bobbleheading in the belief that 20% pay raise is reasonable.
It is vey reasonable
Look at the rates 15 years ago and look at the profits 15 years
250 per hour wide body captain was the pay in 1988
Yes in 1988
Last edited by Sniper66; 10-09-2015 at 09:07 AM.
10-09-2015, 09:04 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,165
Originally Posted by Pro2nd
Why? Delta pilots voted down a 20% pay raise. And their profit sharing blows us out of the water.
Our 2012 contract was still very conservative to nurture the merger and protect the company from an uncertain economy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but our 2000 contract corrected for 2.5 percent inflation would put our top rate at around $350/hr.
Our 2012 contract was still very conservative to nurture the merger and protect the company from an uncertain economy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but our 2000 contract corrected for 2.5 percent inflation would put our top rate at around $350/hr.
Sure, shoot for a big pay raise. And give up a lot of QOL stuff. That's what Devious Dubinsky did in C2K. And the large majority of us fell for it.
Don't get distracted by the shiny object; look at the big picture in a contract.
Originally Posted by Sniper66
It is vey reasonable
Look at the rates 15 years ago and look at the profits 15 years
250 per hour wide body captain was the pay in 1988
Yes in 1998
Look at the rates 15 years ago and look at the profits 15 years
250 per hour wide body captain was the pay in 1988
Yes in 1998
You must have been in cryogenic storage the last 15 years because it was brutal for the airline industry - and cherry picking the previous zenith of airline salaries weakens your case. Maybe you should use the old worn out comparison that an airline captain in the 1960s was paid the equivalent of a new Cadillac every month? That's an equally unrealistic datapoint..
10-09-2015, 09:10 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Captain
Posts: 1,561
Clean up your post - 1988 or 1998? And cite a reference for what you're claiming.
You must have been in cryogenic storage the last 15 years because it was brutal for the airline industry - and cherry picking the previous zenith of airline salaries weakens your case. Maybe you should use the old worn out comparison that an airline captain in the 1960s was paid the equivalent of a new Cadillac every month? That's an equally unrealistic datapoint..[/QUOTE]
Sorry I meant 1988
I know United put 17-18 percent pretax profit margins today
You get what you negotiate remember that and yes I have been around since 89 and I have a clue what happen the last 15 years do you ?
Are you the furlough coordinator ?
You must have been in cryogenic storage the last 15 years because it was brutal for the airline industry - and cherry picking the previous zenith of airline salaries weakens your case. Maybe you should use the old worn out comparison that an airline captain in the 1960s was paid the equivalent of a new Cadillac every month? That's an equally unrealistic datapoint..[/QUOTE]
Sorry I meant 1988
I know United put 17-18 percent pretax profit margins today
You get what you negotiate remember that and yes I have been around since 89 and I have a clue what happen the last 15 years do you ?
Are you the furlough coordinator ?
10-09-2015, 09:18 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,750
I'm not that old, but I have seen 3 BIG cycles in this business corresponding with recession in the economy. To hear about all this leverage were going to have and how Regionals are dead is laughable. We could be furloughing this time next year...or not. But we do have leverage NOW. If you look at the items...
a. Compensation
b. Retroactive longevity for furloughees for pay and vacation
c. MOU 22 Replacement
d. Reserve assignment process improvements
e. FRMS
6. Any extension to the UPA will also include a firm order of NSNBs on the United Mainline property flown by United pilots.
I see MOU 22 and FRMS as the company "gets". It's what they want with all these new 787s coming on and doing some really long-haul flying. (see SFO-AKL, SFO-TLV) There is the leverage. The others are our "gets"...
Compensation....well heck yeah!
Retro longevity for furloughees...wow. Remember all the dudes that were voting NO on the last contract because of this issue? How many posts about fixing this since the contract passed?
Reserve assignment improvements....another wow. How about fixing the SC/FSB bs?
NSNBs on property? That's what scope choke was all about. Getting them here and effectively ending scope creep.
It would be a breach of fiduciary duty for the MEC to just say no to this invitation. Not to mention just plain stupid. Of course they are going to take a stab at it.
Sled
a. Compensation
b. Retroactive longevity for furloughees for pay and vacation
c. MOU 22 Replacement
d. Reserve assignment process improvements
e. FRMS
6. Any extension to the UPA will also include a firm order of NSNBs on the United Mainline property flown by United pilots.
I see MOU 22 and FRMS as the company "gets". It's what they want with all these new 787s coming on and doing some really long-haul flying. (see SFO-AKL, SFO-TLV) There is the leverage. The others are our "gets"...
Compensation....well heck yeah!
Retro longevity for furloughees...wow. Remember all the dudes that were voting NO on the last contract because of this issue? How many posts about fixing this since the contract passed?
Reserve assignment improvements....another wow. How about fixing the SC/FSB bs?
NSNBs on property? That's what scope choke was all about. Getting them here and effectively ending scope creep.
It would be a breach of fiduciary duty for the MEC to just say no to this invitation. Not to mention just plain stupid. Of course they are going to take a stab at it.
Sled
Last edited by jsled; 10-09-2015 at 09:31 AM.
10-09-2015, 09:28 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,165
Originally Posted by Sniper66
Sorry I meant 1988
I know United put 17-18 percent pretax profit margins today
You get what you negotiate remember that and yes I have been around since 89 and I have a clue what happen the last 15 years do you ?
Are you the furlough coordinator ?
I know United put 17-18 percent pretax profit margins today
You get what you negotiate remember that and yes I have been around since 89 and I have a clue what happen the last 15 years do you ?
Are you the furlough coordinator ?
I don't know where you're digging up your stats, but United's pretax margins were guided UP last night to 16-17%, not 17-18%. Minor point, but I cringe when people misstate the numbers. That would be a typical millennial mistake. United Continental (UAL) Stock Soaring on Increased Profit Margin Forecast - TheStreet
You say you've been around since 1989 - is that when you were born? If not, when were you born and when were you hired at United? What year did you start flying professionally? Your previous residency on this forum was on a Mesa thread so I'm leaning toward 1989 being your birth year - in which case, nice deception. But it also damages your reputation to the point where it's probably best to create a new login ID.
10-09-2015, 09:44 AM
#50
(retired)
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: Old, retired, healthy, debt-free, liquid
Posts: 422
Originally Posted by Sniper66
It is vey reasonable
Look at the rates 15 years ago and look at the profits 15 years
250 per hour wide body captain was the pay in 1988
Yes in 1988
Look at the rates 15 years ago and look at the profits 15 years
250 per hour wide body captain was the pay in 1988
Yes in 1988
Negotiations are conducted within the context of today, not what existed 20 years ago or further. Your future TA will approximate where Delta, American and Southwest are at that time.
No company operates in a regulated vacuum anymore. Everything today is blessed with an eye on the competition...pilot labor included. There are still pilots out there who think deregulation came with "snapbacks"...good luck. (one was an ALPA president a few years ago)
(Profitability and variable pay are directly related...profitability and pay rates are not)
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
