ugleeual

I haven't seen the AIP and willing to bet it will pass with 65%… and only 50% of the pilots will bother to vote.

oldmako

Hey, lets not derail a good rant!

I'd venture a guess that over the last 15 years, a huge number of guys, say 30-40 percent of the pilot group have been bumped to reserve. And what percentage of the airline is currently on reserve? Every seat, every plane, every domicile has guys on reserve every day. "F-EM! They bid it!" is the new mantra. As Anita Bryant used to say, "Reserve!, Its not just for CHOOSERS anymore!"

The last three years of musical airplane chairs was what? A dream?

This 2 year bandaid will pass and we won't see the next contract for at least 7 years. No changes to QOL issues, sick leave accrual, training pay, PBS, etc etc etc. Hope the narrow body guys like 31 hours in CLE (etc) for zero pay! The company will get the relief they want for pennies on the dollar and we will have blown a great opportunity. They will have zero incentive to negotiate. Its likely that by then, our contract will be so cheap (relative to DAL) that it will pay them to dig in their heels.

The pendulum swung and knocked us on our a$$e$ after 9-11. Its finally swinging back and we're wiling to sell ourselves short for 13% in quick cash. You've got to doff your cap to Oscar and chalk up another huge win for Willis. Section 6 openers are RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER and, THEY CAME TO US! When that ever happened?

Lerxst

............

gettinbumped

Oh man I LOVE that quote!!!! I've been using that for years. Black Panther. It smells like Bigfoots D*^k!!

gettinbumped

James, I've always respected you on this board. Even though we disagree here, that stays true. I respect your point of view. I see if differently, but it certainly doesn't mean I'm correct. I think what it comes down to is how much is our present leverage worth. You assume that if we went into section 6, the company would give us the same pay rates PLUS improvements in every other area you've mentioned, and still ask for no concessions in other areas. As they do a cost dollar analysis for everything, what you're saying is that the leverage we have with the FRMS needs of the company is worth more than we extracted. I think that is where we disagree. I'm betting the negotiating committee extracted as much as they possibly could. In the face of what has been offered to the other pilot groups, I think what we got looks rather good. It seems to me (NO EXPERT) that we got a lot for the leverage we had. I think this by looking DAL, SWA, AMR, heck throw UPS in there. Record profits are NOT motivating the company to negotiate and the railway labor act neuters much of whatever leverage we can gain. There is a need from the company here clearly, and they were willing to pay for it. You keep saying that 16/3/2 is pennies on the dollar. You suggest that a section 6 negotiation is going to take 5 years (since you suggest we are now 7 years out from a new contract). That 7 years at 15% more than we have now (21%-6%) is a LOT of money. During that 7 years I think we all expect the situation to swing back towards the negative in our industry. Let's say we start negotiating next year and it takes the 5 years you suggest. In year 2 we have a major downturn and the company is no longer looking to give us ANY improvements, but actually looking for concessions? I would rather sail through that storm 15% higher PER YEAR than I am now.

As far as reserve improvements go, if a contract is going to take 5 years then those are 5 years away anyway. And I doubt we will be negotiating from the position of strength that we have now. 15% per year at $200,000 (around the average pay for a narrowbody Captain or Widebody FO flying normal hours under the new rates) is 30,000 a year x your 5 years is $150,000 PER PILOT. Multiply that x 12,000 pilots and you're at $360 million. That's WITHOUT any DAL me too. That's a big number for the leverage we have, or at least not "pennies on the dollar" in my opinion.

Again, I know you don't agree with this analysis, and I understand. Not asking you to. I just have a different perspective. Whichever way this goes, I hope that it works out well for all of us.

fanaticalflyer

This 2 year bandaid will pass and we won't see the next contract for at least 7 years. No changes to QOL issues, sick leave accrual, training pay, PBS, etc etc etc. Hope the narrow body guys like 31 hours in CLE (etc) for zero pay! The company will get the relief they want for pennies on the dollar and we will have blown a great opportunity. They will have zero incentive to negotiate. Its likely that by then, our contract will be so cheap (relative to DAL) that it will pay them to dig in their heels.


[/QUOTE]

You only help reinforce the point to Vote YES for this! You are saying it's going to take 5 years for SEC 6 negotiations to complete, which is pretty much the norm. Of course you NEVER get retro pay and 5 years of lost pay raises with the future value of money, is money you NEVER EVER get back. What a crock of #@@$# that we have leverage! DAL and SW have tons of it, and got lackluster TAs, so give me a break with that BS. There are very little givebacks in this extension proposal. We get a pay raise NOW, which results in hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of dollars extra in your pocket with proper investment over the next 30 years. FULL SEC 6 negotiations is a joke and the pilots end up doing the same give and take as it is, but lose out on all that income. Just plain stupidity. We now get the pay with the ME TOO DAL clause. Reserve rules are going to get delayed out over the next year or two anyhow, so as a reserve, why wouldn't you take the extra 16% pay raise!!! Reserves would be foolish to wait for SEC 6 completed talks. And LOA 25, if you don't yank it now, then for most of the double furloughees, they gain very little in pay if none, except for the retro. MOU 22 makes sense. I still have to see how many flights will get affected by the FRMS change, but it doesn't look like many. Just do the math folks and see what you lose out in pay, with interest, compounded over the remainder of your career vs no pay raise for 4-6 years and it won't be much over this anyhow. You'll never make up the loss; in fact, won't even come close. And losing out on hundreds of thousands of dollars is not an exaggeration. If your a math idiot, then ask your CPA or financial manager to show you the numbers. So sick of hearing the old school shouting we should hold off for entire SEC 6 negotiations. Pilots always end up losing. Give me full retro pay going that route, and I would fully support it, but it will NEVER happen. So with what's proposed, it's time to stare a gift horse in the mouth. This will pass, and we will be a bunch of fools to say NO. Otherwise you can be like the numbnuts of USAIR that refused the arbitration for their merger and lost 7-8 years of pay. What buffoons.

oldmako

The next contract will take forever because we will have given them what they want on the cheap NOW. We will have zero leverage. Why is this concept so difficult to grasp?

They want relief NOW to do the ultra long haul stuff. They came to us. Swing for the damn fence. No agreement in three weeks? Fine. See you in Sect 6 when we still have what you want.

I do not expect them to acquiesce on a whole laundry list of improvements in Sect 6, but I do expect improvements. Aside from a raise, this agreement, as rumored gives us nothing other than pay. Why such a rush? Whose best interest drives this? 60 days ago, there was zero expectation for this. Now, we're fumbling over ourselves to open up our wallets. Fine. But, we can do better.

I'm done.

Probe

AND,
If this extension does include a "me too" for DAL pay rates, the leverage in section 6 swings a little bit bit our way. We are no longer under pressure of old pay rates to vote in a new contract. Our next full negotiations should put us in a stronger position than without the extension.

I see pretty much nothing negative about this extension. Voting yes, we get something we are not entitled to at this time, and a "me too" going forward on pay rates.

Voting no gives us zero. It doesn't fix the reserve system, vacation, sick leave. Nothing.

The next time the company wants something from us, we can negotiate some of those. The "me too" on pay rates should mean we don't have to worry about that section for quite a while. We can concentrate on other areas.

Probe

Some of the stuff in our current contract is a combination of bankruptcy and the merger. The two airlines did things differently, and we had to compromise to get a joint contract.

Going forward, hopefully we will regain some of what we lost.

lUAL lived under a way below industry standard contract for 15 of my 20 years. We have the opportunity here to have an industry leading contract for several years, at least until something really bad happens to the industry again.

I will take my gains now, while they are there for the taking.

gettinbumped

It's not that we can't grasp the concept, it's simply that we don't agree with how much you value our leverage. I don't see this as the holy grail of leverage, and think we extracted a nice premium for it. You disagree. Fair enough.