First year pay
02-18-2018, 12:37 AM
#41
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 96
Originally Posted by Harrisburg
Put whatever number you advertise and factor it for inflation and you still make a fraction what a guy made in the 60s flying similar sized equipment. So not sure what all the chest thumping is about? Why is this 200k so important? Yes it is better than making 90k flying for LaQuita but since when did 200k become some kind of special achievement?
02-18-2018, 05:43 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: DC-8 756/767
Posts: 1,144
Originally Posted by PastV1by10
This whole thing is embarrassing. We wonder why management hates us and wants to contract our flying to others doing it cheaper.
02-18-2018, 05:54 AM
#45
Tri-tanic operator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Doggie
Posts: 2,382
Originally Posted by FTFFv2
Neither does reality.
Year 2 guys starting year 2 rates Jan of 2018 are at a pay rate of $175.72. 180.99 only starts in September so your math has a noticible error in it already.
All the domestic guys and many SDF pilots wont be seeing much international override pay.
Junior guys don’t frequently get the high credit lines so 82.5 average doesn’t really apply to year 2 calculations (I usually get the 75-76 hour lines and only end up in the 80s after trading around to make the sked more commutable, usually at the unwanted sacrifice of days off). 78hrs might be more realistic average for junior peeps.
As you said yourself, sick pay outs don’t apply for a few years.
I don’t recall talking to anyone new selling their vacation back.
LAP isn’t something everyone is getting all the time. Nor are premiums.
Math doesn’t lie:
Jan - August:
$175.72 x 78 hrs = $13,706 per pp
13706 x 9 pp = $123,354
Sept - Déc
181 x 78 = 14,118 x 4 pp = $56,472
2018 gross = $179,826
Intl override: 1,014 hrs per year x $4.5/hr = $4,563 if 100% intl sked. Fine in ANC. New SDF / ONT guys aren’t holding intl lines...
Now we are at $180K to $185K.
Perdiem. 14 days x 2.50/hr (avg of domestic and intl) = $840 per pp or 11K per year. Rem: guys on call, doing turns, hots, training, etc wont get per diem for those days. ($13,104 for pure intl guys)
Now we are somewhere between $180 - 198K.
Premiums, LAP, homestudies, training on day off: no consistency but in my experience:
Home study = 2 hrs/yr?
LAP = 1x per year = 6 hrs
Premiums = 6 hrs per year
Training in day off = 2 days per year = 8 hrs
Total = 22hrs = $3,800
Bringing us to somewhere between $180 and $202. Again, 202K is for the guy doing a full international schedule which I’m pretty sure few if any new guys are. Sure ain’t going to do that based in SDF.
So, no sir. Most of our 2017 hires will not be substantially north of $200K for their second year of service...without picking up extra flying. Can’t figure out why a senior guy is telling a new guy what he will be making with complete disregard to what the new guy is reporting as his and others actual earnings.....
Year 2 guys starting year 2 rates Jan of 2018 are at a pay rate of $175.72. 180.99 only starts in September so your math has a noticible error in it already.
All the domestic guys and many SDF pilots wont be seeing much international override pay.
Junior guys don’t frequently get the high credit lines so 82.5 average doesn’t really apply to year 2 calculations (I usually get the 75-76 hour lines and only end up in the 80s after trading around to make the sked more commutable, usually at the unwanted sacrifice of days off). 78hrs might be more realistic average for junior peeps.
As you said yourself, sick pay outs don’t apply for a few years.
I don’t recall talking to anyone new selling their vacation back.
LAP isn’t something everyone is getting all the time. Nor are premiums.
Math doesn’t lie:
Jan - August:
$175.72 x 78 hrs = $13,706 per pp
13706 x 9 pp = $123,354
Sept - Déc
181 x 78 = 14,118 x 4 pp = $56,472
2018 gross = $179,826
Intl override: 1,014 hrs per year x $4.5/hr = $4,563 if 100% intl sked. Fine in ANC. New SDF / ONT guys aren’t holding intl lines...
Now we are at $180K to $185K.
Perdiem. 14 days x 2.50/hr (avg of domestic and intl) = $840 per pp or 11K per year. Rem: guys on call, doing turns, hots, training, etc wont get per diem for those days. ($13,104 for pure intl guys)
Now we are somewhere between $180 - 198K.
Premiums, LAP, homestudies, training on day off: no consistency but in my experience:
Home study = 2 hrs/yr?
LAP = 1x per year = 6 hrs
Premiums = 6 hrs per year
Training in day off = 2 days per year = 8 hrs
Total = 22hrs = $3,800
Bringing us to somewhere between $180 and $202. Again, 202K is for the guy doing a full international schedule which I’m pretty sure few if any new guys are. Sure ain’t going to do that based in SDF.
So, no sir. Most of our 2017 hires will not be substantially north of $200K for their second year of service...without picking up extra flying. Can’t figure out why a senior guy is telling a new guy what he will be making with complete disregard to what the new guy is reporting as his and others actual earnings.....
You are simply wrong. I’m not sure what your goal here is but it isn’t helpful. Anyone who reads my post can understand second years are going through crush $200k with premiums and per diem. If they take JA or pick up moderate open time they will really be in the 225 range.
Have either of them been JUNIOR in ANC ? That is the assumption that Ray is basing his numbers on. To get to those high figures, you will have to live in ANC, with the associated costs and hassles that go with that. Then you will have to hold the most high paying senior lines (hmmm, how's that going to happen bidding 200/250). Many of your trips will then have to return to base a few days late to get the premium payments. And after that late arrival, you will have to pick up "moderate open time or JAs", on less days off. Once again, I have to wonder if either of these guys have ever been junior in ANC ?
Is it doable ? Maybe. But I don't think anyone junior that commutes to ANC in 2nd year will be able to, or want to spend that much time on the road. Or be that lucky with bidding.
Reality is closer to what FFTF has mentioned, I'd plan on that. Too many assumptions in the numbers Ray has mentioned. I was junior in ANC for years, it wasn't easy to get as much credit as Ray claims.
Either way, you have to get hired and make it through the first year
Last edited by CactusCrew; 02-18-2018 at 06:05 AM.
02-18-2018, 06:07 AM
#46
Tri-tanic operator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Doggie
Posts: 2,382
Originally Posted by PastV1by10
This whole thing is embarrassing. We wonder why management hates us and wants to contract our flying to others doing it cheaper.
We are union labor, they are management. They even hate some of their own mngt pilots
Last edited by CactusCrew; 02-18-2018 at 06:17 AM.
02-18-2018, 06:14 AM
#47
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 90
My point is more geared towards those in amazement and fear of how people survive first year pay. I’m in amazement that people that fly airplanes can’t figure out how to live on 45k for one year. Any discussion of second year pay is to highlight the fact that first year pay is finite. You will be on your way come Year two. That to me is so obvious. And comes with A LOT less pain under today’s contract than in years past. And that considers inflation.
In round numbers the two year average is ABOUT 125k. Ask 90% of the USA population if that would be an ok earnings.
Which spills into the concern for the realm of entitlement. Especially when taken into account the new hire firings. Which does cause scrutiny and discussion.
I had a new hire recently tell me, on discussing past flying jobs, if they had to go through a 11k per year flying job for any amount of time they wouldn’t have done it. The new hire is young and single. That raised my eyebrow.
As far as management hating us....who cares. We have a trade no different from and electrician or plumber. They have their rates we have ours. Some get a better rate than others within the same trade.
I’m more concerned that people come on the property with the right mindset.
In short, they’ll be fine. Make it work.
In round numbers the two year average is ABOUT 125k. Ask 90% of the USA population if that would be an ok earnings.
Which spills into the concern for the realm of entitlement. Especially when taken into account the new hire firings. Which does cause scrutiny and discussion.
I had a new hire recently tell me, on discussing past flying jobs, if they had to go through a 11k per year flying job for any amount of time they wouldn’t have done it. The new hire is young and single. That raised my eyebrow.
As far as management hating us....who cares. We have a trade no different from and electrician or plumber. They have their rates we have ours. Some get a better rate than others within the same trade.
I’m more concerned that people come on the property with the right mindset.
In short, they’ll be fine. Make it work.
02-18-2018, 07:21 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,278
Originally Posted by flyphisher
I had a new hire recently tell me, on discussing past flying jobs, if they had to go through a 11k per year flying job for any amount of time they wouldn’t have done it. The new hire is young and single. That raised my eyebrow.
02-18-2018, 08:01 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,278
Originally Posted by flyphisher
You do what you have to do as a means to an end. And suck it up in the meantime.
Originally Posted by flyphisher
“Worth”. More entitlement philosophy.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
