Why are you even shocked? These are east pilots and they only care about themselves and that much by now should be a given in your and everyone's eyes. It really does not matter to them either way. Take the deal get a big pay raise, don't take the deal and still got a big pay raise. Its a win win situation when just a year ago top capt pay was less than 12yr fo rates at AA. They hit the lottery and they don't give a dam about APA or APA pilots, its all about them.

Continue to expect the hard line push to accept a 6yr deal loaded with loa question marks and land grab opportunities. The same old mantra of "we'll get them next time" is alive and well.

WD at AWA

 

Well great. Now we've got both Route66 *and* WD in this thread. Time to watch any constructive discussion die a quick death.

My final thoughts: if the NC can shape up a deal on the other issues, the Delta+3% represents a substantially higher raise than what we'd see with just the MOU. I'm staying optimistic that a deal can be had that's livable.

 

From an outsider, if anyone in this century won the airline pilot lottery, it was the guys at America West, not the Airways guys.

I really don't know how one could say Airways won the lottery when they went from one of the best legacy contracts to worse than even the low-cost-carriers while losing over 50% of their pilot group in 5 years, closing their biggest domciile (PIT) and in general enjoying the worst career progression one could possibly dream up (hello 30 year F/Os).

There's a reason why A-W was referred to as the "Mesa of the Majors"...and it wasn't because they were a classy outfit.

Personally, I think both groups did really well with the merger and should thank their collective lucky stars it went through, along with any new hires who took a gamble going there pre-merger.

 

Agreed on all counts.

Some of what the company is proposing is livable given the money and I can see why it makes good business sense. I'd like to see the reserve rules unmodified but I also understand that "reasonably available" is ripe for abuse and some people do abuse it. Main thing I'd personally like to see the company relax on is the amendable date. A lot can happen in 5 years.

 

Ok, I apologize for the earlier name calling. I got no problem with that.

How about an apology on your end for yours.

Then let's move on with a reasonable discussion.

Deal?

 

The amendable date is one year difference right, 1/1/2020 vs 12/31/2018? Do we think the company will drag their feet during the next section 6 negotiations? They will always come back to the table asking for more scope relief. We will be retiring near 1000 a year by then and sucking up a lot of regional pilots.

 

I Apologize. Deal.

 

My litmus is running about 65-35 to not take the present offer. Of course my demographics might be skewed. Glass/inline 66 is obviously an enraged Usapian who has gone rabid and continues to foam at the jowls biting madly. Most usually just avoid such out-of-control mongrels.

At any rate, should the BOD crumble as per LBFO I and II (a distinct possibility), then that leaves the furloughees in the lurch with zero credit for LOS and turns another 25% of the pilot groups lives upside down (actually more considering that's a rolling demographic) with onerous reserve call-outs. Then there's the unknown angry percentage that feels it got screwed just on general principle and that Parker was a wolf in sheep's clothing all along. Will that add up to a majority rejection and arbitration anyway (unless Parker comes back and sweetens LBFO III with LBFO IV) ?

Who knows.

Arbitration must be a cost-neutral exercise and is just shuffling work rules around based on a valuation. If Parker gets A, he has to relinquish B, so if the pay rates aren't changed we might get other things back in exchange for Parker wanting X or Y, like improved LTD.

Personally, I'd sacrifice a bit of pay for a better LTD. I'd also sacrifice a bit of extra pay for NO CHANGE to ANY work rules in our contract. If we are the average of Delta and United it means we'd always be MORE then UAL, but less then Delta and that's not the end of the world if we don't relinquish any work rules. If DAL and UAL are the same, we'd be the same, i.e. competitive rates.

Also, we get to open in a dogfight section 6 sooner to correct Parker's slap in the face with real weight. If this offer is accepted for most it's their last hurrah and AA pilots will ALWAYS be tail-end Charlie in overall compensation at least for the next 11-13 years. At least, that's where I'm presently at. The rabid mongrels foaming, growling and barking means nothing.

 

ER-BODY CALM DOWN!!

In the words of the Great Vince Lombardi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocV5bGHdYag

We got WD out of retirement, Route66 going all gang-busters, the old East-West cat fight riled up with a sprinkle of APA-AA hatred thrown in. Look at ourselves! We look like a hot mess. Jerry Glass is well pleased, I'm sure.

Can we all calm down...wait for our union (like them or not...they represent us!) to come up with a negotiated proposal to send to us to vote (or not) and then, rationally, discuss the merits... pros and cons? We don't need to figure out how we're voting quite yet.

 

What makes you believe that Parker will be any more generous in the future. What's to prevent him from stonewalling again? You think we would be able to go on strike?? Nope. Never gonna happen. Never.

The whole "we'll really get them in a few years" mentality is terribly flawed. It will be the same crap sandwich we are eating now. We will be out $50k+ and still be faced with the same issues that Parker isn't budging on. (scope, work rules, LTD, medical cuts, etc.).

But hey... at least you held your ground and forced Parker to arbitration. Way to cut off your nose to spite your face. We'll get 'em next time. Rah Rah Rah