First, it's NOT a matter of "being afraid" of arbitration. I would not use THAT term. If it is a god or poor business decision THAT is a separate issue.

Secondly, even IF the Company proffers arbitration by the terms of the MOU, the so called "effects" of the "alienation of affection" you seem to think will alter the landscape of the holiday season will NOT PLAY WELL with the other "groups"....employees, customers,shareholders, labor.

Thirdly, let Jerry Glass negotiate for the company. I'm not Jerry Glass and I know you're not either.

 

Well, IMHO the other portion of the essentially financially worthless 100,000 employees (from a profit standpoint), that being the F/A's are just as angry and disillusioned with the Parker team (which is essentially the Horton team) as the pilots, so I don't see much friction there. Shareholders ? When have employees cared what the shareholders think (I'm one of them) or for that matter, when have the shareholders cared about the employees ?

I agree that the potential is there for the customers to not be happy with the situation that DOUG created.

Now THIS sounds exactly like something someone representing managements interests would say. Dead-on balls exact.

 

I'm not afraid of arbitration, but I'll point out that we will not recoup the extra pay by the end of the MTA/MOU. Some of us LUS Third-Listers got together and did the math, just to help us see the difference and whether it mattered or not when (or if) it comes time for a vote.

Assuming Delta has a contract in place on January 1, 2016 (which is debatable), they would need an 11.9% raise in order to MEET the proposed pay rates. So in order to recoup the lost value of 2015, Delta's pay scales will need to increase substantially above that, and I don't think we'll see them get 11.9% in one year, much less a greater amount.

Paul DiOrio (PHL) stated last night that Delta would need a 5% raise to get us to the same point as the agreement, but we did the math, and that's not even close. I actually started the calculations out assuming a 5% DAL increase and still fell short by several dollars per hour once I came up with the averaged 2016 parity rate.

So whatever you decide based on what APA can work out, that's your business. But as far as the economic ends of this "deal", going to arbitration will result in much less. If APA can soften up the 7 items the company is asking for, we'll all have to decide what that's worth.

For me, some of those items aren't that big of a deal. Others are a big deal and it'll depend on how (or if) the NC can work anything out that's palatable. Here's how I break it down:

1. 2 hour report time (to check-in): This would be OK for some places, like CLT. But it's completely unreasonable for many other domiciles like MIA, LAX and NYC. I don't want to see our pilots getting disciplined for trying to speed to work in a large metro area. This language needs to change or go away.

2. Eliminate the Home Base Time carve out: I'm not 100% sure about this, but I believe it allows scheduling to more "efficiently" use pilots without any home base time requirements. If that's the case, this language needs to change to avoid abuse.

3. Vacancy Bids: Minor concessions, although I'll admit I'm not sure how it will affect our bidding. I need to read more about how this could affect everyone.

4. Benefits Excise Tax: At this point, this tax is hypothetical because the law has not gone in effect, and it may not go into effect if the Republicans repeal it. It's highly unpopular because it affects a large number of people, plus it's not something that's really the company's fault. You can thank your friends in DC for that one. In any case, I'm not sure we should get hung up on this at this point.

5. Amenable Date: The current MOU/MTA expires December 31, 2018 and is amenable January 1, 2019. They want to extend by a year to January 1, 2020, and extend the HRA to the end of this proposed deal. It's personal opinion on what one year's worth is valued to each of us, but at least we still receive one more 3% pay bump in 2019 to sort of make up for it. To me, I'm on the fence about this one.

6. Overnight landing sim: If you don't fly enough, you'll get to do this once every three months, tops. Maybe it's just my past military background where midnight sims were actually pretty normal, I don't know. But I'm not really upset about that one. Maybe APA can work with the company to set some ROEs one when the company can use midnight sims.

7. Combine International and Domestic Divisions: I understand that at LAA, this keeps people from getting lines they don't want. But LAA seems to be one of the only airlines I'm aware of that has two separate divisions. I know we didn't at LUS. So again, I'm kind of ambivalent about this one.

 

Pilots are in the same place they are because of idiots like yourself who are only out for what benefits me as the individual and not what benefits the collective. Since AWA purchased usless air the idiots on the east focused their undivided attention on harming pilots and not bettering their positions. Now new king idiot route66 wants more individual gains at the expense of the American pilots that gave up plenty over the years. The childish displays of insults and name calling you present when AA pilots tell you no way is indicative of the east way and places on full display your overwhelming GREED.

Now for the record all you have done is cut off your own noses to spite your faces and but for yet another merger you would still be on the industry embarrassing LOA93. Be happy that you got AA green book now and the you were successful in damaging so many fellow pilots careers with your greedy BS. GOD smiled upon you in the east and took pity and for that you need to s.t.f.u and just go along. Be a REAL UNION member for once instead of one from low life low rent op like the former and forever gone usapa.

I know you miss usapa but it is gone forever. In the words of Richard Sherman "YOU MAD BRO"?

WD at AWA

 

Remember though, it's not JUST about pay rates. As for the "softening", that is what I expected and said is much in a post over the weekend. Problem is, Parker isn't interested in softening anything unless APA places themselves under his control and at risk. They are NOT "negotiating", but attempting to manipulate by domination. THAT is the road block and it's unacceptable considering it was APA and AA pilots who gave him the keys to AA and his so far 30 million 2014 compensation.

If most of the above items were "softened", then yes, I think that would give APA the wiggle room to move the process to the pilots. Right now, Parker has given them no essential out and is FORCING them to play the arbitration card whereby any negotiations prior to the hearings will be even more contentious. IF the arbitration card is played (whether an agreement is reached prior or through actual hearings), Parker will have lost this pilot group FOREVER, at least the majority. If Parker was smart, he'd be the bigger man and demonstrate his B.S. wasn't all B.S. and dump the Jerry Glass junkyard dog tactics and talk turkey with APA.

I think BOTH sides need an out and the only hope of that is Parker realizing he's put APA in an untenable position and it's HIM that must alter the equation PRIOR to pulling the arbitration trigger.

 

I understand what you're getting at. But I don't think this management team is going to change their tactics much. It's my opinion if we can get some meaningful changes to the items below, particularly the more onerous ones, then we take their money. Still doesn't mean we have to trust them or like them. But in my opinion, why let them take that extra money to pad *their* bonuses? Thinking that if we stiff-arm them that suddenly they might wake up and start acting more like Anderson is a dream at best.

I think management has pretty much lost a lot of the pilot's trust, and that will be hard to get back. I don't think you'll see management change course on how they approach labor, it's just not their way of doing business. So we have essentially two options...reject their offer and stay angry, or blunt the worst of their offer, take their money, and still be angry.

Agreed. But part of me thinks, based upon his previous interactions with labor, that he doesn't care if we're in an untenable position.

 

Not quite.

For me to vote yes, I'd like to see:

-Current DL +15% to compensate for lack of profit sharing and their upcoming raise
-5:30 min calendar day
-LTD fixed to industry standard
-Reserve system fix
-30hrs in home base
-Hotel language

Now we'd be talking.

And all this IS affordable for the company, they just don't want to pay/treat us like the industry leaders they claim they want us to be.

No problem, see y'all in arbitration. Good luck with the image you presented to Wall Street about "the most successful merger and airline to date."

To sum it up: I know that Doug and Scooter are running this deal the way they've done it in the last. Thanks to our USAirways compadres, we've been warned and they are an invaluable source of info - thanks guys, you rock! But it is my humble opinion that management has bitten off way more than they can chew and are not prepared for the backlash for such a united group here, very unlike what they experienced with US/AW.

 

This!

If not now.. Then when?... Ever?

 

New guy here ... why is everyone mad at Neil Roghair for the C&R post that made it into the press last week? It seemed harmless (and informative) to me.

 

aa73,
I like your posts and usually find you correct and very reasonable. But, this is wrong on so many levels. Let me take it from the top.

I don't know what it's going to take to convince you that your belief in Doug is unfounded. He is absolutely fine with arbitration. In fact, he probably has preferred it all along as TexasPilot (who is so often wrong) suggested. This isn't a "negotiating strategy". This is a cram down! What kind of "negotiating strategy" says take what I want or go to arbitration? It's a false choice. A damned-if-you-damned-if-you-don't scenario. A Kobayashi Maru exercise. And, Parker designed it all along. You see...here it is...Parker already believes he has a contract, because...he does!! We're set...in stone...until 2019. This is just another quid-pro-quo exercise. "I'll give you a little more if you give me these small things." "If you don't, then you already have a contract you should be VERY HAPPY with!" When we say no, which we inevitably will, and which he is counting on, then he'll tell anyone that will listen "I tried to make them the highest paid pilots in the entire universe..they just wouldn't do it." He'll say that at Crew News sessions, Town Halls, Conference Calls, interviews, you name it.

But...you say...he 'really doesn't want to lose the good will of the pilots.' Man...he couldn't give two sh!ts if we're happy or ****ed. Believe that! He does not care! That Freudian slip of his in the Town Hall was not a pre-planned comment designed to throw us off...that is his way of thinking! (I'm talking about "Employees don't affect the daily profits.") He really believes that. He knew he was making a mistake saying that out loud and he tried to back off it even as he was saying it...but it was too far gone and he was too late. At any rate, he's had POed pilots for a decade and still managed to make profits and impress Wall Street. He even got another pilot group to ignore his proven track record and propel him to the leadership role of the biggest airline in the world! So, in a way, the pilots at LAA validated him. He's proven his theory...he can make POed pilots work. I think the thinking around the APA about why the US Airways guys were so POed is..."well...those US Air [sic] are rookies. We'll show them how to run a union. We know how to make this operation come to a halt...those JV pilots over there aren't as smart as us." (You can see that attitude right here on this board with our very own eaglefly.) That hubris is why we are where we are today.

That's right. That's because this is not a negotiating strategy at all. It's an attempt to wring more concession.

Wrong again, mi amigo. We don't recoup the pay. The estimates on C&R show that rejecting the offer and going to arbitration will cost each pilot at least $60,000 (for junior FOs) and more than 6 figures for others. (Although, I still think arbitration is the right path at this point.) And, it's not two years earlier. The MOU runs through Dec 2018. Parker asked to run this contract through Jan 2020. That's only one year (but still completely unacceptable.) Still...let's be correct when we slam this offer.

Noboby is scared of arbitration (except maybe Route66 but even he is not scared. He just wants to make as much as he can before he's forced out. He doesn't care how it affects anybody else...but, hey! That's how pilots do!) But, what the company is offering today is much more than what we'd get anyway and we will not "almost completely recoup [it] at the end of 3 years with arbitration." That said...Let's get ready for arbitration, boys!