That too - "nuance" or "concept of give and take in negotiations" - you don't seem to get either.

The point is that we are NOT "currently seeking higher 777 rates over current widebody rates because it brings in more revenue per flight/more efficiently" - as you are proposing in your original statement.

we are seeking higher 777 rates BECAUSE IT IS A REPLACEMENT FOR THE N-E-G-O-T-I-A-T-E-D A380 rates.

see the "nuance"?

we already GAVE UP something to get the higher pay rates (LOWER pay rates for the 757) - now the company is trying to pretend that never happened and wants us to negotiate AGAIN for 777 pay rates based on it's own merits (revenue generation/efficiency vs. our current fleet types)?? and YOU seem to agree with them???

see the difference? the "nuance"?

your post asked the question "why should we expect to be paid more for flying a 777 over our current widebody rates based on revenue/efficiency when we are willing to settle for 757 rates that are the same as the less revenue/efficient 727s?"

I answered your question - we aren't expecting higher 777 pay rates based on efficiency/revenue - we are expecting higher 777 pay rates because WE NEGOTIATED FOR THEM ALREADY (A380).

That's the "nuance" or the "concept of negotiating" that seems to be lost on you and others that post here wondering why we should expect higher pay for the 777.

If you still don't get it, you never will.

 

You are correct. But may I add, we probably gave up more than just 757 pay rates for those A-380 pay rates.

On another note, I heard a rumor that the company was already negotiating for the 777 while we were in contract talks negotiating A-380 rates. Has this been substantiated? If so, that seems it would be a nice little nugget in our pocket.

 

You bet we gave up a bunch for A-380 rates. Gave up stuff for VEBA and Grid penalties too.

The nugget in our pocket wouldn't smell too nice if we were negotiating 777 rates during contract negotiations. It would mean we dropped the ball. All indications are we were blind sighted on it.

 

Wow --- where do I begin?

(...I guess I'll first start by avoiding the "Shift" key and "Caps Lock", but I digress)

Dude --- I think you misread the subtle intent of my original post and jumped in with guns blazing.

My point wasn't to side with the company regarding their slight of hand in negogiating A380 rates and then purchasing the 777 (...that's a clear foul, especially if they did it "knowingly" during negogiations)

Rather, it was to show that our, completely valid, argument on why the A380 (or 777) should pay more than our current wide-body rates also holds true for the 757 vs 727 transition (...because they move more cargo/more efficiently).

As you point out above ---- we clearly sacrificed improved 757 rates to get the A380 rates.

Why???

(OBTW, I recommend the "half-caf" while on APC )

 

Federal Express at one time had two pay rates, DC10 and B727. Then they bought Flying Tigers which had 747-200s, DC8-73s, and 727-100s. The DC10s and 747s were given a wide body pay rate and the DC8s and 727s narrow body. The DC8 had a MTOW of 355,000 lbs., could carry 100,000lbs+ payload and held 18 containers. How does that compare to the 757?. The 747 MTOW was 820,000 lbs., carried a 240,000lbs+ payload. How does that compare to the 777F?

Look at the bright side. The 777 may go much more junior than most of you guys expect. Hmm? Would a senior guy bid off an airplane with 300+ lines for one that he/she may have the choice of 20 lines? Would the senior guy bid an airplane that will seldom have extra flying available becaus most of the trips will be hard time and any extra flying will bump up against FAR limits.

 

Thanks for clarifying - that's not at all what I got out of your original post.

1. we are not currently negotiating 757 vs. 727 pay rates - that is a done deal - finished - over.

2. we ARE currently negotiating 777 pay rates - why? I don't know because that should already be a done deal too (in my opinion) - replace A380 with 777 and move on.

you said we are "accepting" (present tense) the same rate for 757 and 727 - as if we are currently in a position to NOT accept that 757=narrowbody - or that we are re-negotiating that along with the 777 pay rates.....we are not.

that's where I guess I was confused - your "subtle intent" was so subtle that it actually read (to me) that you believe there is some way that we could change the 757 pay rates now, after the fact.

others on this forum have made statements to the same effect as what I interpreted YOUR comments to be suggesting - "why should we expect anything more than current widebody rates for the 777?"

yes, I did jump in with guns blazing because of previous statements on here similar to that position - it infuriates me when people actually write/say/believe that and forget what we've already given up for the A380 rates.

so, if your "subtle intent" was missed - I apologize for misinterpreting the intent.

we just can't afford, as a pilot group, to allow ignorance of the facts regarding this 777 negotiation (what we've given up, and the company's bait and switch tactic) to result in another loss/giveback to the company.

 

would a senior guy voluntarily go back to the 727 panel, ride (not fly the airplane) along on flights from MEM to Laredo (insert favorite garden spot here) at 3 in the morning for two or three years at less than half their previous pay, and generally get abused because they just "love flying"?

obviously none of us "junior guys" knows what these (you) "senior" guys will do - so far everything they do defies logic.

so, would you just please do us all a favor and shut the "bleep" up!!!!

 

I don't think FAR limits will be a factor...Considering the senior guys will be on sick leave half the time, and using 60% of their vacation throughout the year.

Of course, that's all pure speculation.

 

And they had NO contract, NO union and NO ability to bargain. All that was dictated to them. What they did have was a bunch of guys that were just too happy to be here and sucked up everything they were told and stabbed each other in the back to get as much of the pie as they could!

Would the senior guy bid an airplane at narrow body pay? Dumb question, look how senior the 757 in MEM is and Paris was!

Would the senior guy bid an airplane where he would work only 6-7 days a month for a full paycheck? Oops sorry, another dumb question!

 

Here's yet another 757 user...

Boeing 757 Ed Force One