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Old 11-28-2008, 07:40 PM   #11  
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Originally Posted by DSflyer05 View Post
At my company we typically fly with two type rated captians, Nobody "signs" for the airplane before we leave for the trip we are just assigned to fly the trip. When you look at the flight logs it only lists the name of the crew members, no Captian or FO. We among our selves understand that we switch seats every leg so when I am in the left seat i log PIC and when I am in the right seat I Log SIC. Does that sound like it would be logged accurately enough for the 1000 PIC turbine requirements?
Your trip sheets do not assign a PIC/SIC or Captain/Co-Pilot?

Of course most operations have all "type rated Captains" but there is no "PIC/SIC" assigned?

Who does the logs/paperwork upon return?

Who is listed as PIC on the flight plans?

If someone asked to speak to the Captain, who is it?

On overflight permits, landing rights, etc who is the Captain?

I have never heard of not having some sort of delegation of PIC/SIC!

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Old 11-28-2008, 08:58 PM   #12  
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(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

I can instruct for a week, never touch the controls, and log PIC.
I know this works in the military because the IP will "sign for" the aircraft.
In the civilian world - does the CFI sign for the aircraft from the FBO?
I'm with you on the instructor being the PIC - I'm just wondering if it is as easy to show as in the military?

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Old 11-28-2008, 09:05 PM   #13  
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Originally Posted by NowCorporate View Post
Your trip sheets do not assign a PIC/SIC or Captain/Co-Pilot?

Of course most operations have all "type rated Captains" but there is no "PIC/SIC" assigned?

Who does the logs/paperwork upon return?

Who is listed as PIC on the flight plans?

If someone asked to speak to the Captain, who is it?

On overflight permits, landing rights, etc who is the Captain?

I have never heard of not having some sort of delegation of PIC/SIC!

NowCorporate -

Me either! I talked with a pilot of a Falcon 50 once for over an hour as he showed me around the cockpit and I asked him the exact question though not is as great of detail as you ask above and he gave me the sama answer as DSflyer.

Now if no one signed for the aircraft in my mind (like we do in the military) then I would log it the same way that he does - left seat PIC, right seat SIC. On a military flight plan even if I am the co-pilot filling out and filing the flight plan - ours has a spot to differeniate between PIC and other crew members so I could turn to the flight plan legally I guess (but it is easier than that - he who signed for the aircraft gets the PIC time); but on the civilian flight plan - couldn't I as the SIC sign the flight plan as PILOT?

If someone asked to speak with the Captain - couldn't a corporate guy say "I'm one of the pilots. What can I do for you?" Maybe it isn't the same in corporate aviation (you would know, not I) but if something went wrong and the CP wanted to talk to the **captain** - how would that distinction be made? The guy with the most seniority in the flight department even if he was sitting right seat SIC on that leg?

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Old 12-01-2008, 08:27 AM   #14  
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Our trip sheets just name "crew members" (pilots) not captian and fo. On the last leg of the trip, or when we get back somebody says "well I'll go do the paperwork," and he goes and does it. Nobody has ever asked to "speak with the captian," so I guess I would just say can I help you. We also trade off tasks such as flight planning, so typically when I do the flightplans I put my name as PIC because we don't know which legs we will be flying in the left seat at that point, so it just makes it eaiser. At least Im glad to see that USMCFLYR agrees with the way I log my time anybody else have any input?
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:46 AM   #15  
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DS-

Do you guys have SOP's, an Ops manual etc, that defines who does what?

Or do you just use PF/PNF etc?
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:06 PM   #16  
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We record each leg's PF on our trip sheets. With two type-rated, insurance-approved, company-employed PICs our practice is for the left-seat PF on any given leg to be the designated PIC.

With contract pilots, the company pilot is ALWAYS PIC, regardless of qualifications, PF, or seat flown.
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:18 PM   #17  
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FURTHERMORE, I can take a private pilot up to show him a takeoff, pattern, and landing and HE can log PIC if he never touches the controls because Dual given as a private is PIC.
I disagree. What is your authority for such a statement?

1. The sole manipulator of the controls can log PIC (whether or not he/she is PIC) if rated in the A/C. [61.51(e)(1)]

2. An appropriately rated CFI giving dual can log PIC (whether or not he/she is PIC). [61.51(e)(3)]

3. An ATP can log PIC in an ATP operation if he/she is PIC. [61.51(e)(2)]

Last edited by DeanGibson; 12-01-2008 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 12-02-2008, 05:45 AM   #18  
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DS-

Do you guys have SOP's, an Ops manual etc, that defines who does what?

Or do you just use PF/PNF etc?
We do have an ops manual, but I don't recall anything reguarding duties of the crew members, except of course what the FAR's designate with requards to PIC duties. As Bolier said below your post we just have a trip sheet where we fill in names for the pilot flying for that particular leg, so as stated before, as a crew we understand that the person in the left seat for that particular leg is the PIC. If we do use contract pilots than myself for instance is the PIC for all the legs, even if I let the contractor fly from the left seat, because I am the only pilot in the airplane employed by the company, so at that time I am the only person responsible for the operation for the entire duration of the trip.

Last edited by DSflyer05; 12-02-2008 at 05:49 AM. Reason: additional info.
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Old 12-02-2008, 04:21 PM   #19  
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so lets say i go up with a student and show him lazy 8s for the first time. if i show him it two times, can he not log those 10 minutes because he's not the "sole manipulator"?

Whats the difference if its 2, 10 or 1 hr?
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Old 12-02-2008, 07:34 PM   #20  
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If you are typed in the airplane, you can log PIC time any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls per CFR 61. In other words, if it's your leg, you can log it even if you are assigned as SIC. If you are the assigned PIC you can log PIC time regardless of whether you're flying or not.
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