Being contactable - Part 91
08-12-2014, 06:42 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 124
You're proud to have kept your company waiting maximum time possible based on the principal that you can so you should? AND you will make a point to continue to do it over and over???? Thats honestly…Sad….
If there is a full service Marriott and a Ritz Carlton, do you take the Ritz by default because your contract says you can? Do you seek out Ruth's Chris for all three meals of the day because your contract says you can?
I'm glad to not know that attitude, and with all due respect i'd be ashamed if I did. It's not part of my upbringing and certainly not something I would be proud to tell my children.
In regards to how you label my days off or available days? Whatever makes you happy. Personally, I call them going to the beach, traveling out of state, remodeling my house, golfing, or whatever else I feel like doing. I am very fortunate to have the protection of at least 24 hours notice, and it allows me to do those types of things without the threat of disciplinary action from my employer should I decline. That being said, I show my employer the same respect they show me. It's not me versus them, and i'm not going to take advantage of them just because I can. Tuesday 10am, i'm sitting at home with no plans or personal obligations and work calls, i'm likely going to take the trip.
I think your attitude is perfect for the airlines, and I'm serious when I say this, I think you will be a great union leader representing thousands of pilots, but the reality is, your out of touch with Part 91 aviation.
Edit: Lets just get one thing clear. In these posts I have never said anything about not maintaining hard days off. In my department we are expected to maintain hard days off. I would never fault a pilot for declining work on a contractually agreed off period in most situations. We are talking about a secondary week, not defined as hard days off. And again, i'll stand by what I said in that context. If you are showing up for trips at maximum allowable time based on principle alone, I would eventually let you go. If it's not effecting duty times, safety or regulations, max call out times are based on protections for the crew member (doctors appointments, child care etc…) and I don't think it's right to take advantage just because you think you can.
If there is a full service Marriott and a Ritz Carlton, do you take the Ritz by default because your contract says you can? Do you seek out Ruth's Chris for all three meals of the day because your contract says you can?
I'm glad to not know that attitude, and with all due respect i'd be ashamed if I did. It's not part of my upbringing and certainly not something I would be proud to tell my children.
In regards to how you label my days off or available days? Whatever makes you happy. Personally, I call them going to the beach, traveling out of state, remodeling my house, golfing, or whatever else I feel like doing. I am very fortunate to have the protection of at least 24 hours notice, and it allows me to do those types of things without the threat of disciplinary action from my employer should I decline. That being said, I show my employer the same respect they show me. It's not me versus them, and i'm not going to take advantage of them just because I can. Tuesday 10am, i'm sitting at home with no plans or personal obligations and work calls, i'm likely going to take the trip.
I think your attitude is perfect for the airlines, and I'm serious when I say this, I think you will be a great union leader representing thousands of pilots, but the reality is, your out of touch with Part 91 aviation.
Edit: Lets just get one thing clear. In these posts I have never said anything about not maintaining hard days off. In my department we are expected to maintain hard days off. I would never fault a pilot for declining work on a contractually agreed off period in most situations. We are talking about a secondary week, not defined as hard days off. And again, i'll stand by what I said in that context. If you are showing up for trips at maximum allowable time based on principle alone, I would eventually let you go. If it's not effecting duty times, safety or regulations, max call out times are based on protections for the crew member (doctors appointments, child care etc…) and I don't think it's right to take advantage just because you think you can.
Last edited by GrummanCT; 08-12-2014 at 06:55 PM. Reason: Adding to post
08-12-2014, 07:01 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 473
1) yes, and thanks to people like me you do have minimum call times
People like you might have that taken away from all of us.
2) almost never a Ritz, but definitely a JW, I am the one booking it, and there is never a question from the CPA. If it is good enough for the boss, it is good enough for me (even if never the same hotel, obviously) If there are questions it would not be a god job.
3) you can label your on call days the way you want, but language is a convention, and in English off means off.
I bet you never take the advantage of those 24 hours call, and if so, may be 10% of the times.
4) I have been in touch with 91 ops well before you, judging form your posting history, and I have seen good corporates flight departments ruined by people like you. People that would get other pilots fired for trying to establish and respect work rules. I have seen your kind in action, experience it.
I might belong to an unionize organization, but you belong with people working during strikes.
People like you might have that taken away from all of us.
2) almost never a Ritz, but definitely a JW, I am the one booking it, and there is never a question from the CPA. If it is good enough for the boss, it is good enough for me (even if never the same hotel, obviously) If there are questions it would not be a god job.
3) you can label your on call days the way you want, but language is a convention, and in English off means off.
I bet you never take the advantage of those 24 hours call, and if so, may be 10% of the times.
4) I have been in touch with 91 ops well before you, judging form your posting history, and I have seen good corporates flight departments ruined by people like you. People that would get other pilots fired for trying to establish and respect work rules. I have seen your kind in action, experience it.
I might belong to an unionize organization, but you belong with people working during strikes.
08-12-2014, 07:04 PM
#43
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Originally Posted by Ewfflyer
FlyJSH left an airline to return to 135 work, just posted it this past week i believe. Fwiw.
Every job, every owner, every op, and even us pilots are different. While they could be similiar, they aren't. That's life, and what might be lemons for one is lemonade for another. Good luck to everyone.
Every job, every owner, every op, and even us pilots are different. While they could be similiar, they aren't. That's life, and what might be lemons for one is lemonade for another. Good luck to everyone.
I have flown scheduled 135 freight way back (not sure that exists anymore), unscheduled 135 air ambulance years ago and back to it now (see this thread for my experience there http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/pa...-feedback.html). I have flown 121 Colgan/Pinnacle/Endever. And I have flown 91 corporate for a family that respected the employees.
I have interviewed and declined 91/135 combo jobs (individual owner puts the plane on 135 to cut costs) because I was truly on call 365 days: No scheduled vacations, one guy I asked about going out of town to get my medical said, "Well, I guess we will have to work around that." To me a big "Run Away" sign popped up.
Colgan was a crap regional that I happened to find a niche in that I liked (living in base Saab CA stand ups about 4 nights/week). It was great while that niche existed, but once I was commuting IAH to MSP, life sucked.
The 91 corporate was a Caravan for a nice oil family. I flew about 100 hours a year. Pay was average for a Caravan, but no benefits (I was a contract employee, got a 1099). Schedule averaged flying the old man one weekend each month to the ranch. Sometimes stayed there, sometimes flew home and came back Sunday to pick him up. About every other month I had a week long trip. Boss was great, offered to rent me a motorcycle to pass the time in Montana. Only once in the year I worked for him did he call short notice (uncle was dieing and brother needed to get to the hospital). I told them beforehand I needed two hours call out (depending on traffic, I was to an hour plus from the airport, plus time to to flight plan, etc.) It was a fantastic retirement job. But for me it was untenable because I have a history of cancer and cannot self insure. Also, I did not enjoy that every three day weekend, rather than being with my buddies, I had to fly somebody somewhere. Again, I averaged 27ish days home each month. I couldn't do it, but they were great folks, and when I hit 65, if they are looking, I may go back.
So, being "on call, 24/7" has a wide range of meanings. For the crappy jobs, it means you never have a drink, no hard days off, and fly your butt off. For the good jobs, it means "We aren't going to fly you much, lots of time home. But when something bad happens, and we need your help, will you be there?"
Not sure if these ramblings help, but good luck to you.
P.S. While my life sucked at Endeavor, the straw that broke the camel's back was having to take care of someone I love who has brain cancer. Often life sucks... a lot... and being home in a few hours to take care of things is a whole lot better than being 3+ time zones and 4 days away. IMHO, anyone who wants to keep a family with young kids should never take a job that will keep them away 6+ months/year: having been in the Navy and seeing the divorce rate, I think my opinions are backed up in fact.
Last edited by FlyJSH; 08-12-2014 at 07:21 PM. Reason: added the PS
08-13-2014, 03:42 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by GrummanCT
You're proud to have kept your company waiting maximum time possible based on the principal that you can so you should? AND you will make a point to continue to do it over and over???? Thats honestly…Sad….
If there is a full service Marriott and a Ritz Carlton, do you take the Ritz by default because your contract says you can? Do you seek out Ruth's Chris for all three meals of the day because your contract says you can?
I'm glad to not know that attitude, and with all due respect i'd be ashamed if I did. It's not part of my upbringing and certainly not something I would be proud to tell my children.
In regards to how you label my days off or available days? Whatever makes you happy. Personally, I call them going to the beach, traveling out of state, remodeling my house, golfing, or whatever else I feel like doing. I am very fortunate to have the protection of at least 24 hours notice, and it allows me to do those types of things without the threat of disciplinary action from my employer should I decline. That being said, I show my employer the same respect they show me. It's not me versus them, and i'm not going to take advantage of them just because I can. Tuesday 10am, i'm sitting at home with no plans or personal obligations and work calls, i'm likely going to take the trip.
I think your attitude is perfect for the airlines, and I'm serious when I say this, I think you will be a great union leader representing thousands of pilots, but the reality is, your out of touch with Part 91 aviation.
Edit: Lets just get one thing clear. In these posts I have never said anything about not maintaining hard days off. In my department we are expected to maintain hard days off. I would never fault a pilot for declining work on a contractually agreed off period in most situations. We are talking about a secondary week, not defined as hard days off. And again, i'll stand by what I said in that context. If you are showing up for trips at maximum allowable time based on principle alone, I would eventually let you go. If it's not effecting duty times, safety or regulations, max call out times are based on protections for the crew member (doctors appointments, child care etc…) and I don't think it's right to take advantage just because you think you can.
If there is a full service Marriott and a Ritz Carlton, do you take the Ritz by default because your contract says you can? Do you seek out Ruth's Chris for all three meals of the day because your contract says you can?
I'm glad to not know that attitude, and with all due respect i'd be ashamed if I did. It's not part of my upbringing and certainly not something I would be proud to tell my children.
In regards to how you label my days off or available days? Whatever makes you happy. Personally, I call them going to the beach, traveling out of state, remodeling my house, golfing, or whatever else I feel like doing. I am very fortunate to have the protection of at least 24 hours notice, and it allows me to do those types of things without the threat of disciplinary action from my employer should I decline. That being said, I show my employer the same respect they show me. It's not me versus them, and i'm not going to take advantage of them just because I can. Tuesday 10am, i'm sitting at home with no plans or personal obligations and work calls, i'm likely going to take the trip.
I think your attitude is perfect for the airlines, and I'm serious when I say this, I think you will be a great union leader representing thousands of pilots, but the reality is, your out of touch with Part 91 aviation.
Edit: Lets just get one thing clear. In these posts I have never said anything about not maintaining hard days off. In my department we are expected to maintain hard days off. I would never fault a pilot for declining work on a contractually agreed off period in most situations. We are talking about a secondary week, not defined as hard days off. And again, i'll stand by what I said in that context. If you are showing up for trips at maximum allowable time based on principle alone, I would eventually let you go. If it's not effecting duty times, safety or regulations, max call out times are based on protections for the crew member (doctors appointments, child care etc…) and I don't think it's right to take advantage just because you think you can.
Otherwise, there is no reason to have those rules.
You would not last in a serious flight department with that attitude, the other guys would see you as a threat the their well deserved work rules, and you would be let go with one excuse or another, before you make it to have the somebody else fired for trying to respect the established work rules.
Personally, I would smell your kind a mile away, and I would never hire you, not even for a day contract.
08-13-2014, 04:13 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Left seat on a kite
Posts: 1,884
Originally Posted by NoSidNoStar
You seam very defensive. I only attacked who wants other pilots fired for trying to respect their days off.
Do you?
I have an issue with misleading youngsters into thinking that an available day without flights is a day off.
Do you agree with that?
You might not a time builder now, but you were when you left the regional, so don't try to sell the idea that you had it made in the airlines and left for 135. That was a time building job. Sorry. I had one of those too back in the days.
I don't care what planes you fly, your destinations, and you salary.
I only know you have 13 days off/qt.
And that is all I need to know about your job.
You want me to say that you and Grum have the best jobs, same as you tell yourself in the mirrors?
I am proud of having the company waiting the maximum available time for me to show up, I would do it again, and again, and again.
As far as bidding to avoid me as you said you would, funny, it is the exact opposite. Young pilots always want to be under the wing of somebody that would stand his ground rather then with older guys ready to throw them under the bus in the name of team play.
Do you?
I have an issue with misleading youngsters into thinking that an available day without flights is a day off.
Do you agree with that?
You might not a time builder now, but you were when you left the regional, so don't try to sell the idea that you had it made in the airlines and left for 135. That was a time building job. Sorry. I had one of those too back in the days.
I don't care what planes you fly, your destinations, and you salary.
I only know you have 13 days off/qt.
And that is all I need to know about your job.
You want me to say that you and Grum have the best jobs, same as you tell yourself in the mirrors?
I am proud of having the company waiting the maximum available time for me to show up, I would do it again, and again, and again.
As far as bidding to avoid me as you said you would, funny, it is the exact opposite. Young pilots always want to be under the wing of somebody that would stand his ground rather then with older guys ready to throw them under the bus in the name of team play.
I will stand and agree with you about days off. We have hard days off
But I know others who don't. The look-back policy isn't right. I can and will agree with you on that.
A guys day off is his unless he chooses to change for personal reasons (ie overtime, day swap, etc).
What do you make of guys who make careers at regionals? Did the not "make it"?
Older guys and younger guys will throw each other under the bus everywhere. Majors, regionals, fractionals, everywhere.
I don't need you to tell me that I have the best job. Just don't attack all corporate jobs. I know mine is better than many but not as good as others. The best job is the one that you enjoy and pays your bills.
Just calm the accusations of all of us. I don't throw all major airline pilots as fat, overpaid, underworked, entitled, whiney brats!
08-13-2014, 04:43 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 473
RI, I did not attack all corporate pilots. I am one. I apologize to you if I came across that way, sincerely.
You jumped in the conversation and automatically took the side of the who wants pilots fired for not respecting the work rules.
It was probably my fault to make you think that way. But with this you showed a defensive attitude, assuming I was attacking the category, which I am actually trying to protect. I attack and despite who has a servile attitude toward the boss, pretending to be the boss friend, and gets others in trouble for not being ass kissers. This are chauffeurs, not professional pilots.
If you stand but what you last said here about days off, you are one of the good guys. Again I apologize to you if I tickled you wrong.
Call me naive, but I do not want to agree about the reality of throwing others under the bus, I think only few bad apples do that, and they ruine it for everybody. Those are the ass kissers that don't abid work rules.
There is nothing wrong with pilots that make careers at regionals, I know a couple of good guys like that, but they had additional incomes of some sources for the first few years to make it to captain. Now with 18+ days off (real days off) per month, left seat pay, and a side business, they are actually doing pretty good, and overall better than major airlines pilots.
My point about the airlines-to-corporate move is that you don't see somebody voluntarily leaving a major to go GA; you can see the other way around everyday. Pilots that leave the airlines to go corporate, they leave regionals.
I might not have been clear on this, but I did it too. I had a regional job at one point, and I left it to go back to corporate.
You jumped in the conversation and automatically took the side of the who wants pilots fired for not respecting the work rules.
It was probably my fault to make you think that way. But with this you showed a defensive attitude, assuming I was attacking the category, which I am actually trying to protect. I attack and despite who has a servile attitude toward the boss, pretending to be the boss friend, and gets others in trouble for not being ass kissers. This are chauffeurs, not professional pilots.
If you stand but what you last said here about days off, you are one of the good guys. Again I apologize to you if I tickled you wrong.
Call me naive, but I do not want to agree about the reality of throwing others under the bus, I think only few bad apples do that, and they ruine it for everybody. Those are the ass kissers that don't abid work rules.
There is nothing wrong with pilots that make careers at regionals, I know a couple of good guys like that, but they had additional incomes of some sources for the first few years to make it to captain. Now with 18+ days off (real days off) per month, left seat pay, and a side business, they are actually doing pretty good, and overall better than major airlines pilots.
My point about the airlines-to-corporate move is that you don't see somebody voluntarily leaving a major to go GA; you can see the other way around everyday. Pilots that leave the airlines to go corporate, they leave regionals.
I might not have been clear on this, but I did it too. I had a regional job at one point, and I left it to go back to corporate.
08-13-2014, 07:22 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 423
Originally Posted by NoSidNoStar
This kind of attitude is what makes the corporate sector of the aviation industry the destination for pilots that never made it to a real job.
Interesting. Have you tried to hire a large cabin corporate Captain lately? Your starting number is at least $160,000, and you will have to poach them from another job. Nobody qualified (without issues) is unemployed.
The vast majority of Gulfstream/Global/7X pilots I know are in the 175-250K range and very happy with their schedule and lifestyle. If they weren't they could walk and find work within a week. Maybe corporate has changed since you last looked. You need to look at aircraft sales over the last 10 years, the above types dominate the market and the salary range has followed.
No, you won't be rich, but it certainly sounds like a "real job" to me (as far as flying jobs go at least)
It's pointless to debate the airline-vs-corporate story, work where you want. I know I wouldn't consider any airline pilot position at this point in my career, but I certainly wouldn't speak for everyone.
Last edited by NowCorporate; 08-13-2014 at 07:32 AM.
08-13-2014, 08:22 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by RI830
We had a "arse kisser, no day off respecting" guy for too long. He got himself fired for his shenanigans. We all applauded his departing the hold!
08-13-2014, 08:37 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by NowCorporate
Interesting. Have you tried to hire a large cabin corporate Captain lately? Your starting number is at least $160,000, and you will have to poach them from another job. Nobody qualified (without issues) is unemployed.
The vast majority of Gulfstream/Global/7X pilots I know are in the 175-250K range and very happy with their schedule and lifestyle. If they weren't they could walk and find work within a week. Maybe corporate has changed since you last looked. You need to look at aircraft sales over the last 10 years, the above types dominate the market and the salary range has followed.
No, you won't be rich, but it certainly sounds like a "real job" to me (as far as flying jobs go at least)
It's pointless to debate the airline-vs-corporate story, work where you want. I know I wouldn't consider any airline pilot position at this point in my career, but I certainly wouldn't speak for everyone.
The vast majority of Gulfstream/Global/7X pilots I know are in the 175-250K range and very happy with their schedule and lifestyle. If they weren't they could walk and find work within a week. Maybe corporate has changed since you last looked. You need to look at aircraft sales over the last 10 years, the above types dominate the market and the salary range has followed.
No, you won't be rich, but it certainly sounds like a "real job" to me (as far as flying jobs go at least)
It's pointless to debate the airline-vs-corporate story, work where you want. I know I wouldn't consider any airline pilot position at this point in my career, but I certainly wouldn't speak for everyone.
But if you look at the top airline jobs, in the same equivalent percentage, you find pilots with remuneration packages north of 300k and country club QOL .
I can't get there neither at this point of my career, but to give a young kid the advice to not go for the major airline, base on income and QOL, only because that is the best we can do? That is misleading.
Additionally there are many more pilots, that started young enough, holding those top tier airline jobs, while many corporate pilots never make it to a "real job" no matter how many years the flew a mid size.
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