New Hire Class Drops
05-27-2025 | 08:59 AM
#5321
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Joined: Apr 2024
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I didn’t know the exact answer but suspected Delta has had the fastest growing widebody fleet. I didn’t look and Delta appears to have had a net increase of 16 Airframes verses United being static or actually decreasing a couple of airframes. United does have a large order book however they have a huge replacement cycle coming up.
05-27-2025 | 09:39 AM
#5322
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 329
Likes: 36
I didn’t know the exact answer but suspected Delta has had the fastest growing widebody fleet. I didn’t look and Delta appears to have had a net increase of 16 Airframes verses United being static or actually decreasing a couple of airframes. United does have a large order book however they have a huge replacement cycle coming up.
Its a bit of a deceptive statistic, as UA didn't retire airplanes during covid like DL (bunch of 767s and all the 777s) and AA (330s and 767s). So it is an 'artificially low' baseline from which to measure subsequent growth.
Looking forward UA's huge orderbook will be offset by retirements (old 777s, 767s most likely) but still forward looking it isn't even close on net between them and everyone else.
AA has become an also-ran but has also been hamstrung by not being able to get their new 787s anywhere near on schedule. As they seem to be waking up on the need to compete I expect to see a big WB order from them, while DL sits on its reputation and codeshare partners until GH and EB retire, at which point I question if the historical revenue premium will still exist.
Time will tell!
05-27-2025 | 10:15 AM
#5323
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,210
Likes: 654
From: ir.delta.com
Its a bit of a deceptive statistic, as UA didn't retire airplanes during covid like DL (bunch of 767s and all the 777s) and AA (330s and 767s). So it is an 'artificially low' baseline from which to measure subsequent growth.
Looking forward UA's huge orderbook will be offset by retirements (old 777s, 767s most likely) but still forward looking it isn't even close on net between them and everyone else.
AA has become an also-ran but has also been hamstrung by not being able to get their new 787s anywhere near on schedule. As they seem to be waking up on the need to compete I expect to see a big WB order from them, while DL sits on its reputation and codeshare partners until GH and EB retire, at which point I question if the historical revenue premium will still exist.
Time will tell!
Looking forward UA's huge orderbook will be offset by retirements (old 777s, 767s most likely) but still forward looking it isn't even close on net between them and everyone else.
AA has become an also-ran but has also been hamstrung by not being able to get their new 787s anywhere near on schedule. As they seem to be waking up on the need to compete I expect to see a big WB order from them, while DL sits on its reputation and codeshare partners until GH and EB retire, at which point I question if the historical revenue premium will still exist.
Time will tell!
05-27-2025 | 12:48 PM
#5324
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,867
Likes: 182
I grabbed the numbers off internet sources. Went to the actual annual reports and you are correct. United actually had a net gain of 10 widebodies. They went from 213 to 223.
05-27-2025 | 12:51 PM
#5325
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Joined: Feb 2008
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UAL uses the order book as a hedge. They have a lot of sway with BA when it comes to adjusting as needed. Selling or swapping delivery positions etc. Delta uses the gently preowned market the same way. Delta finds airplanes when they need too. MD-90s, B717s, GoL 737ngs, Lion air, LATAM (Qatari) 350s etc.
05-27-2025 | 01:40 PM
#5326
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 161
Likes: 22
United WBs:
227
Delta WBs:
174
When considering this difference, it's important to realize UA does 1 Capt/3 F/O 4-pilot while DL does 2 Capt/2 F/O. I don't know how many WB Captains UA has, but the effect is pretty clear comparing Captains/airframe at DL. On the 767-400 where it's pretty much all 3-pilot augmented, we have 9.4 Captains per aircraft. On the 330/350 where there's varying degrees of 4-pilot, we have 12.3 Captains per aircraft. 330/350 are also growing fleets, so I'd expect them to be understaffed.
If the reason to compare is thinking about how much opportunity there is to be a WB Captain someday, they are about the same number.
227
Delta WBs:
174
When considering this difference, it's important to realize UA does 1 Capt/3 F/O 4-pilot while DL does 2 Capt/2 F/O. I don't know how many WB Captains UA has, but the effect is pretty clear comparing Captains/airframe at DL. On the 767-400 where it's pretty much all 3-pilot augmented, we have 9.4 Captains per aircraft. On the 330/350 where there's varying degrees of 4-pilot, we have 12.3 Captains per aircraft. 330/350 are also growing fleets, so I'd expect them to be understaffed.
If the reason to compare is thinking about how much opportunity there is to be a WB Captain someday, they are about the same number.
05-27-2025 | 02:25 PM
#5327
Banned
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 8,831
Likes: 499
United WBs:
227
Delta WBs:
174
When considering this difference, it's important to realize UA does 1 Capt/3 F/O 4-pilot while DL does 2 Capt/2 F/O. I don't know how many WB Captains UA has, but the effect is pretty clear comparing Captains/airframe at DL. On the 767-400 where it's pretty much all 3-pilot augmented, we have 9.4 Captains per aircraft. On the 330/350 where there's varying degrees of 4-pilot, we have 12.3 Captains per aircraft. 330/350 are also growing fleets, so I'd expect them to be understaffed.
If the reason to compare is thinking about how much opportunity there is to be a WB Captain someday, they are about the same number.
227
Delta WBs:
174
When considering this difference, it's important to realize UA does 1 Capt/3 F/O 4-pilot while DL does 2 Capt/2 F/O. I don't know how many WB Captains UA has, but the effect is pretty clear comparing Captains/airframe at DL. On the 767-400 where it's pretty much all 3-pilot augmented, we have 9.4 Captains per aircraft. On the 330/350 where there's varying degrees of 4-pilot, we have 12.3 Captains per aircraft. 330/350 are also growing fleets, so I'd expect them to be understaffed.
If the reason to compare is thinking about how much opportunity there is to be a WB Captain someday, they are about the same number.
05-27-2025 | 02:57 PM
#5328
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,210
Likes: 654
From: ir.delta.com
Orders don’t actually mean much. It’s extremely cheap to secure a widebody order until progress payments start. Delta as posted has normally always made orders in smaller batches. They did however once place a massive Boeing order. They took delivery of like 6 aircraft from that order.
05-28-2025 | 02:41 AM
#5329
Moderator
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 7,413
Likes: 413
it's been 5 or 6 years, so it may have changed, but a UAL buddy was interested so we ran the numbers and it certainly wasn't FAR more. When you account for the fact that many of their 76 Captains almost never fly the 764, we only had about 50 fewer WB Captains than UAL. Id guess it's due to 1/3 ratio and the fact that they use their WBs a lot more on domestic routes. Of course they had a lot more WB FOs.
05-28-2025 | 08:01 AM
#5330
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 161
Likes: 22
it's been 5 or 6 years, so it may have changed, but a UAL buddy was interested so we ran the numbers and it certainly wasn't FAR more. When you account for the fact that many of their 76 Captains almost never fly the 764, we only had about 50 fewer WB Captains than UAL. Id guess it's due to 1/3 ratio and the fact that they use their WBs a lot more on domestic routes. Of course they had a lot more WB FOs.
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