Airline Pilot Central Forums - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying Monkey (Post 657191)

Heard Moak was meeting with DCI MEC heads in DC this week. What's up wit dat?

They are negotiating a flow through agreement for certain DCI carriers. According to my MEC Vice chair/EVP these talks have been ongoing for quite a while. They are looking at doing it in a way that's never been done before. Supposedly it will prevent the seniority flush at the DCIs as happened to Eagle. But in doing such, it won't be very valuable if Delta furloughs right away. Ask your reps for the deets.

Honestly, I doubt it will get off the ground, but at least they're talking. Word is the flow through agreements are a prerequisite to a possible staple for these certain carriers... ASA, Comar, Pinnacle, Mesaba (Compass already has their own deal).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superpilot92 (Post 657194)

Bingo!! I tell this to every captain i fly with. Without Scope the rest of your contract is WORTHLESS!!

I tell this to every FO I fly with as well! :)

If it is the will of the pilot group - why is it NOT being done by those that represent us?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawaii50 (Post 657190)

I look around at the way other groups handled the same period and see the junior guys thrown to the wolves. Yes, I'm including former NW.

You are completely ignorant of what occured at NW. Nobody threw anyone to the wolves. Both junior and senior were killed in bankruptcy.

Check facts before you post.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 657207)

Had LM tell me to my face that he feels we have the capital to actually get DAL management to give us bilateral flows with all of the ALPA DCI carriers. My question is if you have this much strength, then shouldn't you take it one step farther and just given them numbers.

All a flow is, is the ability to put pilots on our list and restart their longevity. I say if you can get them their longevity as well, we might be going somewhere. (I did not say seniority, longevity as in vacation accrual, and other bennies)Flows like this reset the cost of the pilot for the company. It keeps DCI costs low. With these costs as high as they are, they need to do something. All I see DCI as is a C scale that we do not want on our list. It would cost us to much in the near term. They are not a B scale, we are currently all flying at that here at mainline.

I'm not so sure about that. I wonder why LM thinks they have leverage. What could management possibly want besides more scope relief? Certainly THAT can't be his bargaining chip. I'd have thought he learned.

Also, not sure where you're going with your comments about not wanting the C scale. First you're talking about about stapling with longevity, then you say the C scale will drag you down? :confused:

I don't think anybody's talking about increasing the size or amount of outsourced aircraft. Pretty much non-negotiable for the vast majority I would think. But when you try to convince a guy who was making $250 a couple years ago, now makes $150 and lost his multi-million dollar retirement, that his most important issue is getting CPZ on our list and negotiating flowthroughs, you may have a problem. Especially when he's been battling this company for years. Make no mistake, taking anything back from this company is going to be a mammoth undertaking. The next contract will have so many issues for so many people. We'll all have to try and understand each others perspective if we hope to achieve the unity we'll need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawaii50 (Post 657215)

My thoughts, exactly. Most pilots don't have the big picture. They can't see past their wallet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superpilot92 (Post 657195)

I dont know if this has anything to do with it but i've been hearing alot lately that DALPA wants flow agreements in place with all or most of the DCI carriers. It would help bring the pilot groups together to push for a common goal. It would also provide further furlough protection to mainline pilots because the flowback costs would increase even more so than right now with just the CPZ/Mesaba flow. We'll see

Super - you are right and it is dumb. Let me explain why:

Moak's vision of setting a minimum standard which regionals are required to negotiate up to is just moving the issue off his desk. It provides him the political cover of "I told them to do better."
SkyWest is not represented. Republic, Chautauqua, and Shuttle America are represented by Teamsters. Teamsters sticks it to ALPA every chance they get. A good example is Teamsters joining with management to fight ALPA's attempts at protecting the TSA pilots. These groups do not want to play by ALPA's concepts and are incapable in any event. This policy is destined for failure.
If we negotiate a minimum requirement for mainline to outsource then we are using mainline bargaining capital to negotiate for pilots we do not represent.
Flow through agreements are promises made by airline management for future employment. Airline management has repeatedly shown it is unable to keep promises of future employment and benefits.
Flow through agreements destroy longevity. ACL65 has flown Delta passengers for over a decade, but is on year 3 pay.
Flow down agreements do not protect mainline jobs. By definition, flow down is outsourcing.
Flow down agreements do not protect mainline pilots in merger transactions. If we merge with Alaska, I do not want to be a "Republic" or "Compass" pilot. US Air's MidAtlantic pilots went to the bottom of the combined list.
Flow through agreements take away Delta's control over hiring.
Finally, flow through agreements are no replacement for unity. Separate lists will always mean separate bargaining agendas that result in "I win, you lose" scope battles. Flow throughs do not provide career progression, or security and allow for the destruction of longevity.

Flow through agreements are bad policy - period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 657212)

You are completely ignorant of what occured at NW. Nobody threw anyone to the wolves. Both junior and senior were killed in bankruptcy.

Check facts before you post.

Carl

Not as ignorant as you think. Let's ask the junior NW guys what they think of Compass. Did the senior guys sell the farm to save their DB? How many were furloughed more than once? Sure you can blame it on the company but all issues are give and take. As a relatively junior DL guy, the senior DL guys, IMO, gave much to save as many junior guys as possible and went out of their way to try an support those they couldn't save.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawaii50 (Post 657215)

I don't think anybody's talking about increasing the size or amoumt of outsourced aircraft. Pretty much non-negotiable for the vast majority I would think. But when you try to convince a guy who was making $250 a couple years ago, now makes $150 and lost his multi-million dollar retirement, that his most important issue is getting CPZ on our list and negotiating flowthroughs, you may have a problem. Especially when he's been battling this company for years. Make no mistake, taking anything back from this company is going to be a mammoth undertaking. The next contract will have so many issues for so many people. We'll all have to try and understand each others perspective if we hope to achieve the unity we'll need.

You will not have unity unless you fix scope. The top sold out the bottom (and themselves) for too long. If you want unity, you are going to have to compromise. Compass is a small group of 300 pilots.

Simply put, this would be the first time in my career I ever have lobbied against strike authorization and I will do so because my MEC has been unresponsive to popularly passed resolutions asking for economic analysis of policy change. We are on the wrong track with outsourcing and we need to stop it.

Consider that your pay as been cut hand in hand with outsourcing. The two ARE related. As we outsource more we have less power at the table. The result is the declining trend vector that you see, with lower highs and lower lows.

If you want to fix your problem, you start by fixing our problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Pennekamp (Post 657213)

Point John is that the current work rules and wages of DCI are a C scale. IMHO the perceived bennies for keep these jets and pilot off of the mainline property are that we will not have to use what little leverage we have to get them to our work rules and pay parity.
Many will argue that DCI is paid more per seat than mainline, I know this to be true, but the common sentiment when I bring up bringing DCI jets and pilots over as one is that it would cost to much.
That brings us to the point that DCI is in effect a C scale. A flow brings the costs of DCI down. That is bad for all parties involved except the 23 y/o pilot that wants to upgrade to get the "time" to go to SWA :)