I meant "fair at best" as in "a mediocre result"--in took a two week strike to get a 12% raise over 3 years, and yet we have guys complain because we got a 13.2% raise (the 4/8 adjusted for the 6 month early part of the 4% raise) ON the amenable date of the contract.

But keep telling yourself the "screw you, no screw you back" approach works. I will take the "constructive" approach that has actually gotten us real results numerous times over the past few years. In fact only when the AA pilots starting doing things our way did they get anything at all. But hey, they sure looked good in the mirror beating their chests into oblivion for about seven completely pointless years.

That doesn't mean that there isn't a time that you need to tell the company to pack sand. That time might not be for a long time off, and it might be next week. But so long as we can continue to get real gains, and not some pie-in-the-sky "if we just say no RA will magically find 20% more with our name written all over it" approach, I am all for keeping the current path.

If the time comes when mgmt does their schtick (like they did at DAL in the 90s) where they publicly blame the pilots for all the company's problems, "demand" another low-fare airline-within-an-airline (subsidized with lower pilot wages, but no other employee group), etc., then we can do the old "screw you" approach with the best of them. But that should be done when the circumstances call for it. Right now they don't, and my having that opinion no more makes me a shill or "bend over" type than your voting no on a TA means you want DAL to go out of business tomorrow.

I'm not trivializing the strike, what led to it, or its conclusion. I said that the NWA guys ran an impeccable strike. If they got rid of the B scale at that time, then I applaud that (and also acknowledge that it took some negotiating capital to get rid of that).

I'm just tired of guys bashing DALPA for accomplishing MORE outside of a strike than other groups have accomplished within one. For example, we got rid of our B scale in conjunction with establishing pay rates for the 777 and 767-400. Its a long story, but the bottom line is that our negotiators had had some secret negotiations with the company to establish some pay rates on those aircraft before we the pilots starting refusing to fly them (which was our contractual right absent a negotiated pay rate).

We ended up agreeing to 777 captain rates of $265/hr--in 2000!--similar rates for the 767-400, immediate elimination of the B scale everywhere and a 6% raise for the rest of us.

And yet we had guys whining about how the company "did it again" what "losers" we were, blah blah blah.

In C2K we still had 30% of the guys vote against that, even though now it is exalted as if the pay rates were chisled on stone tablets off Mt Sinai. I had one guy tell me he was going to quit the union because C2K was "so concessionary!"

Precisely.

A damn sight more than any Delta pilot has done.

And I am PMDAL.

"Right now they don't?"

The company is making billions. Yet it cannot "afford" an industry-leading contract (granted, "our" "union" and 62% of my stalwart coworkers agreed to POS12).

Record profit this year. Yet it continues to shirk its contractual obligations (granted, "our" "union" continues to bail management out).

So if not now is not the time to make a stand....when is? When the company is losing money?

So it's your contention that DALPA has produced only improvements, and given nothing away?

I think we're done here.

The Comair strike kinda acted as a proxy. After losing $660,000 per RJ FO to resolve a difference that would have cost the Company ~ $15,000 per pilot, Leo Mullin wasn't eager to find out how much striking Delta pilots could cost him.

Of course, Leo's changed strategies, signed C2K and decided to bankrupt the Company. I understand Leo told the pilot who signed C2K on behalf of Delta that Delta would never see the top pay rates. Based on these statements, it is my opinion bankruptcy was planned either before, or shortly after, C2K's ratification (and I am not saying c2k caused the bankruptcy, but management was happy to amend it when they had the opportunity).

C2K scope did not make it 6 months before modifications were made to the percentages of permitted flying.

No, it's that whole giving up more 76 seaters which breathed new life into management's failed 50 seat RJ experiment.

You know better than that. We are not in compliance now. Even DALPA has said we are not and management has no plan on how to become in compliance.

And who gives us all the information (or as I say, disinformation) to cast those votes? DALPA.

It's 92 hours. And the claim of 87 as an average for line pilots is pure BS. We've been through this many times already. They came to that number by excluding line pilots who are paid less than 70 hours. Distorting figures to make your case is the ALPA way.

It's true. Now I don't know if there is anything sinister in those books or names, but ALPA patently refuses to show it or talk about it.

No, they didn't explain it. The LM2 is quite clear about what happened to Moak's salary. $576K is accurate.

Carl

Contract 2012 almost made it a full year before this scope waiver.
We must be getting better.

That's a good point. I don't remember seeing the calculations and references for this number.

Both of these are personal opinions...especially yours. I happen to fully agree that ALPA is all about growing the membership regardless of the means it takes to achieve that. But, that's my opinion.

You forgot about the fact that ALPA has LOST a number of high profile lawsuits brought by their own members. Those damages cost ALPA a ton of money.

True enough. And those are some damn high numbers given those pilots' seniority.

There's one sure way to prove that Free Mason. Publish the survey results! I'm sure one of the top choices of pilots was to give up more productivity so we can operate with fewer pilots. :rolleyes:

What ridiculous spin. DALPA won't publish the survey results because it would clearly show what those 5 reps said...which is that DALPA did not negotiate via the pilots' survey. And yes we voted for it, but DALPA controlled the message and the communication to pilots for that decision. My opinion is that DALPA did nothing but provide disinformation in an attempt to save a poorly negotiated TA and keep themselves from being embarrassed and thrown out of office. They failed at that since most were thrown out of office anyway.

Carl