Why would you make something like this up! Don't you read the forum!

so did that resolution pass?

8:01 flt
Minus 1.5 (toc and tod) equals 6.5 at cruise

Pm at toc gets ninety minutes, that puts us with 4 hrs remaining.
Pilot landing gets the last 2 hours.
That still leaves 2 hours.

It is just friendly to give the relief guy bunk time.

A forum that you so readily and actively participate in...

Because you shouldn't have any obligation on your day off, that's why. Does this really need explaining? Your reserve day starts at midnight. If you want to give us a mandatory schedule check then, fine, but the default is long call because nothing can be "pre-assigned" so noon was the default earliest and even the company agreed months ago.

Because nothing on day one before noon was the management imposed status quo once 117 took effect; even they couldn't force anything earlier. Yet we gave them the earliest FAR legal report time 2 hours sooner as a concession to fund other things. Ergo RSV pilots were sold out to throw dollars at other groups. You Shirley can't be OK with that? It also helps the company out with staffing. Perhaps you could argue that we used that as bargaining credits to apply elsewhere I guess. But really?

Reserves also get on average significantly fewer days off per month than line holders. And contrary to populist hyperbole, most reserves aren't chilling at home with footlong beards only showing up to sims for currency. And most pilots, and I know this really frosts you, are commuters (and many "locals" have VERY significant drives far in excess of many air commuters). Not everyone can bid ATL and drive a golf cart to work. That is a reality of the industry of a majority of our pilots and our union needs to accept that. Noon on day one was a very workable solution to the realities of 117 that significantly increased reserve QOL. And we gave it up for little cookies elsewhere in the contract.

Same thing for the other massive concession we gave. 13 hour long call, if it results in a 3 hour callback leash, is another massive concession we caved to in order to fund other things. The company didn't need either of those concessions. But we traded them away for cookies to apply elsewhere.

I agree. That is the only way I can interpret that sentence. Ergo, current book must have been better for us. Obviously we have to obey the limits of the FAR's anyway, so this strongly implies that current book was more restrictive. This certainlly appears like at least the third concession (4th depending on how CDO's end up looking).

Another post with forum histeria without any real thought. As already discussed it requires 3 pilots verses two for each flight on a transcon turn. There has been nothing to stop any airline from flying these as a augmented turn for at least the last 30 years. No airline does them because it makes no sense. Even JetBlue who really wants transcon turns never considered augmenting them.
One other consideration. If Delta did decided to fly transcon turns if your not in the top 20 percent in category don't plan on seeing one. A SFO turn would pay around 12:30. Fly 6 a month and you will have 75 hours. Two three day groupings would look pretty nice as a monthly schedule! Not going to happen however, just to costly for the company

I still argue that CDOs are not gone based on my reading of FAR 117. The term CDO has never been in the FARs.

With 121.471 you had a 16 max duty day and could have a very long CDO if there were no contract provisions.

With 117 there are shorter max duty days based on when you duty in. Most CDOs would duty in between 1700 - 2159 which allows a "continuous duty period" of 12 hours with no hotel or rest requirement for a two leg duty period.

Our PWA has much tighter language for late duty ins. At 2100 the max duty day is 9 hours and is variable +/- that time based on the actual report.

If we agree to give up our PWA language and go to the FAR 117 FDP we would be upping our duty period by 3 hours on average for CDO style operations.

A Split Duty Period allows for even longer Duty periods but has a requirement for hotel rest but there is no FAR requirement for a SDP vs a CDO if the flight can operate in a 12 hour duty period.

Depends on the category. In most international categories, especially the "pure" international ones (i.e. everything but the 7ER) most reserves do sit home collecting the reserve guarantee. I agree that that is not the case elsewhere.

We lost all of two hours, which is not a huge deal. Further, even up until Jan 1 reserves could report as early as 0500 on day one--not a peep from you then, but now 1000 is an outrage? So apparently in your world the "good ol' days" ranged only from January-May 2014, and everything else sucked. And further, you state that we gave up the 2 hours for "little cookies." Do you refer to the ADG of 5.15 a day, that applies to reserves as well as regular lineholders, and applies to DH-only duty periods as well, as a "little cookie?" It is HUGE. It is revolutionary. It is even "disruptive" for those who like to talk economics. For the first time EVER reserves get paid the same for all trips as a regular lineholder does--guys have been complaining about that as long as DAL has existed, and we finally--finally--fixed it. But to you it is less than nothing. I disagree.

You can't use the words "massive concession" and "if" in the same sentence. Why don't you (and I) wait for the detailed language before claiming something is or isn't.


Your "cookie" is underestimating some of the positive changes, in my opinion. But I think we just need to read the details prior to making any definitive judgements.

Of course, which is a sizeable majority of the pilot group that is effected. Affected? This will have a significant impact on reserves. Most pilots are commuters, and for many commutes there is a huge difference between 10AM and noon on day one.

If you commute (by air or a long drive) it is a huge QOL deal.

Because we had agreed to that for quite some time. I always despised it. But then came 117 and instantly it was noon with no action on our part. So we crafted a concession to allow the earliest FAR legal report coming after a day off. I'm shocked and appalled we did that, and I can't see how you or anyone is OK with that.

Sucked for everything? No. For this issue, yes. How sad it is indeed that reserves got some "good old days" for a few months as a result of new FAR's and a company memo, and we had to negotiate relief for the company to reduce it to bare bones FAR legal. Again, I can not believe you are OK with that.

Day one reserve report time applies to every single reserve on every block of days in every category 100% of the time. For many pilots with challenging commutes, that could make the difference between a night at home versus commuting up on a "golden day" off just to be in position for something even if they don't end up getting an assignment. Most rotations won't benefit from the new ADG. This was costed by the company, obviously, and I think you are over stating its significance. Yes it is a positive, but its not worth what we gave up for it. You also have to include the MASSIVE concession of a 3 hour call back leash. That is absulutely huge and revolutionary for the company and disruptive for reserve QOL. In many cases responsibile commuters will have to cummute in dramatically early if they have a theoretical blackout period in excess of 3 hours. Let alone if they want to turn the phone off and get some sleep, which they can't anymore. Gotta get to that bat phone in under 3 hours now, no matter what.

That is not "less than nothing" and it IS a positive. But it is NOT worth the significant concessions we gave up to get it. Most reserves will not benefit from that most of the time because for most trips its not an issue and even when it is, if you don't break guarantee it never triggers anyway. I am in favor of the change, but not the price we paid for it. Losing 2 hours every start of every reserve period and being on a 3 hour call back leash is not worth the occasional month where the trip difference throws some time onto your card.

There are plenty of things I'm reserving judgement for. Like CDO's for example, which I'm not categorically against. I do think that needed to be a completely separate side letter/TA (subject to MEMRAT) though. I'm very concerned with the "fly to the FAR's" portion we apparently agreed to. But the gains we know we're getting don't seem even remotely close to the losses we know we're giving up. Based on what I've seen so far, I'd prefer current book. And that includes taking our chances with the grievance process. Day one at noon was already established no matter what, and I see zero risk in any arbitrator forcing a 2 hour call back leash. If we turn this down we still have leverage and, sadly, greater QOL than if we aproove it.


I'll look the whole thing over, assuming we get to, and vote on it, assuming we get to, and if not provide direction to my rep. But based on what I've seen it looks like we got rolled big time.