Another excellent point. The company can hand out whatever "current plans" info they want purporting a "win for the pilots". The NC is at a huge disadvantage and would be foolish to think what the company supplies is accurate.

When the company later does a 180, there are always a million reasons to blame the changes on. Guys like Sailing are quick to give the economy a pass due to things "out of the control of the company".

How many times must we be burned by loose language that uses vague terminology that ends up favoring the company? Who the he11 are these top notch attorneys vetting the agreements and why would our MEC/NC agree to such lousy language? Must we keep shooting ourselves in the foot when more tightly written language would put a stop to it? There are far too many negatives in this current TA. Send it back or lets wait for C2015.

I'm more interested in the broader issue of selling out safety. But on a personal note, I'm very concerned about exactly this. As a relatively junior MD-88/90 Captain (and probably several more years before I'll have the seniority to control my schedule to any great degree), how am I going to avoid CDO's? I can't fly them. I flew a couple of them over 20 years ago and couldn't handle them then. It's not going to be any better now that I'm almost 55. I can't sleep during the day. And I've never been able to take naps. It's one of the main reasons why I've never flown international and don't intend to. It's one of the main reasons I stayed on the MD-88 as a First Officer to avoid redeyes when I could have held the 757/767 or 738.

So if we allow CDO's, I can just about guarantee you the 88/90 category is going to be chalk full of them. Maybe some senior guys will bid them but I really doubt there are THAT many of us who don't know better. A lot of these trips will go to people who are junior in their category.

So what am I supposed to do if I get assigned one of these things? Call in sick? Refuse the trip? Fly the first leg and then call in fatigued for the leg in the morning? Bid back to First Officer and take a huge pay cut? I don't really see any other options, as I will not sign a release for a flight when I know damn well I'm too fatigued to justify putting all those people's lives in my hands. I can't begin to tell you how upset it makes me that DALPA would even CONSIDER putting some of us in this position. :mad:

Found this gem on another forum: (a little levity as well as a pretty darn good point)

This is another great opportunity to unify with your RJ alpa brothers.

They already know how much you love to outsource your flying to them.

By degrading your pay and work rules towards theirs, you are showing even more support.

" One level of stupidity "

This was discussed.
The answer was that anybody who calls in fatigued on one of these trips will be handled in exactly the same way it is handled for any other trip.

The pilot will either be deadheaded back to his base or given a legal break until he is no longer fatigued and then continue flying.
After that there is a discussion with the Chief Pilot to determine pay status, reason for fatigue, etc.
Its spelled out in FOM section 3.2.25

Scrappy obviously would not and can not detail every individual's situation.

Common sense would suggest if there are some circumstances that arise, either personal or operational, and you find yourself fatigued, then you could call off the operation and there would be no "repercussions".

If you do it just because you are philosophically opposed to split duty periods, well --- then you might have some "splainin" to do.

The chief pilot has a lot of discretion.

Welcome back!

That will be done in a side letter.

Welcome back, Carl!

Agreed. Anytime I hear "Scrappy likes it," I buy all the generic petroleum jelly I can get my hands on.

Very true. It's complete madness to run the numbers based on the current trip mix; if the TA passes, trips will be modified by Eniac to exploit those work rule giveaways.

CE,

Was this discussed?

Note: If, due to late operations, a pilot does not receive such a sleep opportunity, the Company will:
1) schedule such a pilot to fly his originally scheduled flight segment after receiving a sleep opportunity of at least three hours, or
2) provide such a pilot a break in duty immediately after his first flight segment.

Does the part in bold refer to the outbound leg for the "layover", or first flight segment on his way home?

Also--when will memrat be discussed?

Where did you find that reference? thx