Originally Posted by Sink r8 (Post 1648338)

We have a number of those on the NYC 7ER. I did a few JFK-PDX 3-days. I liked them a lot.

I believe this TA can't replace those sort of trips, as the two legs must be < 2hours each.

Originally Posted by nwaf16dude (Post 1648280)

I understand the anti-cdo angst coming from guys that only experienced them under RJ operator scheduling, but I also sense a lot of feigned outrage coming from DPA supporters looking for something to be angry about. Anybody that worked in the DC-9 world at NWA knows d@mn good and well that those trips were extremely popular and very rarely ended up in open time. I don't have actual data, but I know that in every DC-9 base there were a lot of senior guys that flew nothing else. In 4 years on the nine I ended up flying one. To claim all those guys flying those trips for all those years were being unsafe is just plain silly.

Originally Posted by Denny Crane (Post 1648345)

I believe you are talking cdo, this is about augmented crew transcons vs 3 day, one leg back and forth.

Okay, so those trips are out there but I'll bet they are the exception and not the rule.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver (Post 1648348)

How much sleep did those guys get during the day when they flew the CDO at night? How much sleep did they get on the CDO? How much sleep did they have in the 24 hours prior to flying that early morning leg back to base?

If it was considerably less than 8 (which I'm pretty sure if you're honest is the answer) then they were fatigued flying that eary morning flight back to base. Flying fatigued is dangerous. That's a proven fact.

The truth is that the guys who like CDO's like them because it allows them to be home and do whatever they want to do during the day. THAT is why they are popular with some. It is a compromise on safety, pure and simple. Anyone who rationalizes they can get by consistently on 3 or 4 hours of sleep and is not flying fatigued is fooling themselves.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver (Post 1648348)

How much sleep did those guys get during the day when they flew the CDO at night? How much sleep did they get on the CDO? How much sleep did they have in the 24 hours prior to flying that early morning leg back to base?

If it was considerably less than 8 (which I'm pretty sure if you're honest is the answer) then they were fatigued flying that eary morning flight back to base. Flying fatigued is dangerous. That's a proven fact.

The truth is that the guys who like CDO's like them because it allows them to be home and do whatever they want to do during the day. THAT is why they are popular with some. It is a compromise on safety, pure and simple. Anyone who rationalizes they can get by consistently on 3 or 4 hours of sleep and is not flying fatigued is fooling themselves.

Originally Posted by shiznit (Post 1648358)

How much rest did the pilot commuting at 14:00 to JFK to fly a 20:45 departure on a 10:40 leg get yesterday (with a 12:40 duty day)?
How well does he sleep in the BE seat with the FA's coming and going?
How well does he sleep with a 6 hour change in body clock?
How about doing the same thing on the way back?
How does a FDX pilot manage to get through a domestic 2-3 leg night?
(Additionally, the FDX pilot gets 6:00 pay, Delta pilots will get 7:30 pay)

Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1648286)

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/1867...pit-take-o.gif

So there's the problem.

"Hey we want 5.15 a day."
"Fine, we want CDOs and augmented transcons."

Now why would that be? My hypothesis is on the previous mentioned ATL-SFO-ATL route you have the exact same amount of aircraft block hours, legs and required trips of 29.5. Except one is a 3-day and one is a CDO.

My guess would be for the month with 29.5 trips x 15.45/TL/trip = 464 TL / LCW 75 hrs = 6.2 As required to cover that route for the month or 12.4 pilots total.

29.5 trips x 10.5/TL/trip = 310 hrs / LCW 75 hrs = 4.13 As and 4.13 Bs and 4.13 more Bs. Total 12.4 pilots.

But not hotel costs and fewer As, fewer A RES pilots required, etc. That's why I think it's cheaper over a month.

BTW I looked at one SFO overnight for the whole day, 28 different pilots from ATL, NYC, MSP, SEA, SLC to complete the 7 ATL flights in and 7 out.

CDOs to all of the hubs seems less complicated, and less complicated probably requires less coverage.

Originally Posted by Denny Crane (Post 1648322)

In doing your math you are assuming the loss of credit time from doing a turn vs doing a 3 day, 30 hour layover, one leg each way transcon. In reality, how many of those do we have......I would hazard a guess that it's none. That trip would be a 2 day with no credit, the same as a turn.

Denny

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1648371)

We have a few out of JFK now. We won't have any with a 5:15 daily min.