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Originally Posted by TheManager
(Post 1660597)
Respectfully Sailing, what you state is incorrect. You might be lost in translation.
First, US/AMR have group category aircraft. Their group 4 includes 777 and 767-4, 787 etc. On 2015, we cease getting raises. We will be stopped out as follows. 777A 12 year = $270 764A 12 year = $255 Then, on January 1, 2016, US/AMR receives a 16.5% raise. They will be paying their 764 pilots $20 more per hour and the equivalent for 777. We likely will be in section 6 still. They will get a 3.5 in 2017 and 2018 as well if needed. If we are still negotiating in 2018, which even you eluded to yesterday, then they will have readily surpassed us. And there you have the $40 difference in pay. Even at 2016, they exceed us. And to answer your last question, "By the way if their contract was so good what does that make ours?" Answer: Not as good. And for you recollection, this is the contract they negotiated on the emergence from BK. :eek: Again put some numbers out using the aircraft we both operate in large numbers. |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1660523)
You might be able to call crew resources and wiggle out of it, I was unsuccessful when I tried, but that was a long time ago.
Probably all new people in crew resources by now. The "Problem" is, as soon as the bid is awarded, your freeze begins. Clear as Mud? Scambo, strangely I loved flying it and the schedules were better than anything else ... . |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1660599)
So you would switch payrates with them now? I don't believe they have any 767-400's.The 16.5 percent is a estimate based on what they think a parity review may bring based on raises at other airlines.
Again put some numbers out using the aircraft we both operate in large numbers. No, but after 2016, uhh yea. I don't believe they have any 767-400's True, but you got lost again. Let's try it this way. Hey, You fellow Delta pilots here, particularly you A330 and 764 guys, would you like to be banded to the 777 and thus the 747 rates, today? US/AMR is paying those banded rates to the 777 today. Are we not paying the 330 and 764 guys the same rate here at Delta? Is it not true that at US/AMR, they are paying their 764 787 and 777 in the same band and if extrapolated to us here at Delta that would then included the A330 in that band as well? That's of course you don't believe we have to give something up for that again. The 16.5 percent is a estimate based on what they think a parity review may bring based on raises at other airlines. Just not true. They have booked that raise plain and simple. When I get back to my humble abode in Phoenix, I shall walk 30 yards to my LCA USAirways neighbor and get the copy of the MTA and screen shot it for you. Again put some numbers out using the aircraft we both operate in large numbers Um, what do I say, read the 764 to A330 comparison again. I'm on a trip and a pick up soon. You go look up the numbers you wish to use. Mine are legit. |
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Originally Posted by TheManager
(Post 1660597)
Then, on January 1, 2016, US/AMR receives a 16.5% raise.
From: APA Vice President Date: Friday, November 29, 2013 6:14 AM To: all American Airlines pilots Subject: November 29: Two Years Later But along the way, other industry developments helped our strategy. The Southwest–AirTran integration led to a sale of 717s to Delta, which led to an expedited new-pilot contract. A new contract at Delta triggered an agreement-in-principal for the pilots at United, which helped improve the market comparisons being used at our negotiating table. In short, the bar was raised, and though sacrifices were made in the way of changes in our productivity, as well as our medical, disability and pension benefits, we did not pull the market down with our bankruptcy/merger contract. Instead, we moved into a position where we will actually assist other pilot groups with pattern bargaining going forward. Five weeks from now, after an 8 percent pay raise, our hourly pay rates will be 12.3 percent higher than when AMR filed bankruptcy. In January 2015, we will receive another 3 percent raise followed by a January 2016 move to the average of pay rates at Delta and United, which we estimate to be another 15–16 percent improvement. |
Originally Posted by gzsg
(Post 1660588)
Current UAL 767-400 A $255/hr
Current DAL 767-400 A $248/hr UAL rates are higher today on many aircraft. Source this website and UAL PWA. Here's the rest of the fleet, with the pay difference 777 - DAL $8/hr higher 747 - DAL $8/hr higher 767ER - DAL $6/hr higher 757-300 - DAL $6/hr higher 757-200 - DAL $14/hr higher 737-900 - DAL $7/hr higher 737-800 - DAL $5/hr higher 737-700 - DAL $14/hr higher A320 - DAL $2/hr lower A319 - DAL $7/hr higher AND - their contract was signed AFTER ours. Pattern bargaining 101 says you're supposed to TOP rates already in existence for a comparable airline. FAIL. AND - by setting an A321 rate the same as the A320, they've made it that much harder for us to get a good rate on that aircraft. Another FAIL. Thanks for NOTHING, UAL. |
Originally Posted by TheManager
(Post 1660597)
First, US/AMR have group category aircraft. Their group 4 includes 777 and 767-4, 787 etc.
On 2015, we cease getting raises. We will be topped out as follows. 777A 12 year = $270 764A 12 year = $255 Then, on January 1, 2016, US/AMR receives a 16.5% raise.
Originally Posted by TheManager
(Post 1660597)
We likely will be in section 6 still. They will get a 3.5 in 2017 and 2018 as well if needed. If we are still negotiating in 2018, which even you eluded to yesterday, then they will have readily surpassed us. And there you have the $40 difference in pay.
Even at 2016, they exceed us.
Originally Posted by TheManager
(Post 1660597)
And to answer your last question, "By the way if their contract was so good what does that make ours?"
Answer: Not as good. And for you recollection, this is the contract they negotiated on the emergence from BK. :eek: As of Jan. 1, 2016 12 yr FO 757-200*: FDX = $162.55 DAL = $154.50 AMR = $151.53** UCAL = $148.57 LCC = $98.37*** 12 yr CA 757-200*: DAL = $226.21 FDX = $224.65 AMR = $221.86** UCAL = $217.52 LCC = $144.02*** 777 CA*: UCAL = $270.25 DAL = $270.25 AMR = $270.25** FDX = $260.61 777 FO*: FDX = $184.75 UCAL = $184.59 DAL = $184.59 AMR = $184.59** *Based on no DAL pay table increases, only used common fleets *info only: FDX based on 15 yr top of scale, not part of AMR average, presently 3 years into Section 6 **may vary slightly, actual calculation is a weighted avg. by ASM's *** Absent this merger, does anyone really think they'd have gotten a deal by then?? |
Why are you trying to lower our expectations?
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[QUOTE=index;1660370]Were the 2004 v 2014 pay rate charts not coherent enough for you? How about the CPI? You know that it takes 26% more $ today to equal $1.00 in 2004?
Remind me who negotiates our contracts? Complete BS. There are no pay rates in 2014 that are "basically the same" as 2004 pay rates. You arye delusional if you actually believe this to be true. The 2014 pay rates are as much as 20% LOWER than in 2014, and that's without including the loss of purchasing power due to inflation. That's a FACT. No amount of spinning will change that FACT. Your sky is green and the earth blue "argument" aren't very persuasive. And there are MANY reasons why that could be so, but one thing is for sure---it is NOT because the 2014 pay rates are superior to those from 2004. Your pay rate is roughly 20% LESS, that's right LESS than in 2004. It matters not, except to you, what your W-2 was from last year. Of course to you, that's all that matters. What matters is the apples-to-apples pay rate comparison. If you think they are "basically the same" from 2004 to 2014 then you are completely beyond help. Translation- I got mine, pull up the ladder.[/QUOTE Basic reading skills; check the 2004 767ER rate and the 2014 777 rate, they are basically the same. You're right there are reasons I make 30% more now, like profit sharing, better contract, more credit time, the beat goes on. Ass for your last statement ( not a typo) |
Originally Posted by finis72
(Post 1660668)
Basic reading skills; check the 2004 767ER rate and the 2014 777 rate, they are basically the same.
2004 rates: 767..... $267.32. ($262.38 for the 777 in 2014) L1011...$288.92 L1011...$296.94 767-4....$301.89 MD-11...$304.86 777.......$319.61 To still be paid $5 per hour less than you were 10 years ago even though you've climbed 5 pay positions to get it is not exactly something to be crowing about. Carl |
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