First of all ALPA has no business printing anything to give us (or our reps) the same frame of reference ALPA has. ALPA's frame of reference should be coming from the reps and the pilots that pay them through their dues. Of course ALPA doesn't operate that way. ALPA operates top down just as you've unwittingly described. That's the problem. That's why you ALPA higher ups feel so misunderstood and under appreciated. It's no conundrum at all.

Carl

While I agree with you fully when it comes to goals, direction, etc., I don't read Alfaromeo's post as referring to that. It sounds to me as though he is talking about the facts of the world in which our reps negotiate -- the way that airline economics work, the way that negotiations typically proceed under the RLA, etc.

When these pieces came out prior to C2012, I found them most helpful in understanding the basic framework within which these processes occur. In no way did I sense any attempt to manage my expectations, one way or another.

Yes. I think one must be disabled to get it before age 65.

I understand that's what DALPA presented in their road shows. They will not show how those numbers were derived any more than they'll show survey results. We're just supposed to believe ALPA.

Carl

Our fellow Delta pilots, Carl. The ones we elect to represent us. The guys with whom we share a cockpit and a career. That's who we're talking about here.

Or, you could just believe management. They don't provide us with their spreadsheets either. Good thing they have no need for spin. :rolleyes:

I think everyone is missing the point. Pilot costs most definitely went up. However, we are a cost of doing business and with our current business plan the increase in efficiency and additional pilots also allow for increased revenue. Do we cost more, yes. Does the company make more money with this contract, absolutely. The revenue gains far outweighed the increased costs to the company. Hence ALPA states more money went our way and the company tells the investments it was cost neutral.

I have specifically said I don't have access to the data. Very few of us do. That's why I try not to make claims like Delta pilots are "the most expensive pilots in the industry", etc.

Carl

Yes I do. The SWAPA contract is an example of my data to support my factual statement that we lag SWAPA in scope. That's one example.

Carl

I think it's a mistake to focus on pay rates. Scope provides your right to a job in the first place and work rules can play a much greater role in annual compensation than pay rates. SWA is a great example of that.

That MIT study has also been widely and correctly criticized as being heavily distorted and incorrect. I think the author of that study is unqualified at best.

The difference is that those employees didn't take a massive (voluntary) pay cut prior to BK like we did. You see the difference?

Carl

You don't know that sailingfud. You're making that up.

Carl