Airline Pilot Central Forums - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

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- - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Shore (Post 1675843)

Our fellow Delta pilots, Carl. The ones we elect to represent us. The guys with whom we share a cockpit and a career:

I didn't elect a single one of the entrenched bureaucrats. Some of whom actively post here to undermine our reps' influence, some of whom are concerned only with preserving their seat on the gravy train.

"Share a career?" Sorry, I don't get to collect fpl, get wined and dined by management, enjoy an expense account, and generally mooch off the pilots' dues. The entrenched bureaucrats most certainly do not "share my career."

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1675470)

I posted the data for you Carl with the actual yearly increases in pilot costs. What data do you want?

As I've told you before, I want a link to the data so we can see the source. Then I want the context so I know how those data were derived. For example, a claim that total pilot costs are greater due to C2012, but also includes the fact that we're an aged pilot group who are consuming greater health care, would be a distorted reason to credit C2012.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sink r8 (Post 1675484)

You said a mouthful, there.

1) How exactly is pay banding "on the table"?
2) How come you didn't speak about CDO's in time for the group to react?

Your question should be: Why didn't our union's communication committee speak about CDO's in time for the group to have given their reps the appropriate guidance? Thus saving the embarrassment of showing ourselves to be amateurs in front of management.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1675506)

Then you can never, ever bring up the responsibility of our profession argument.

Not only can we, but it's vital to continue telling that truth. Few occupations have our level of responsibility for lives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1675506)

If you do, please show your work on how you determine which human life is worth less than any other.

He didn't say that. Nobody has. I'm saying that the two are clearly disconnected. Our profession has an enormous responsibility for lives attached to it. Our pay is based (somewhat) on the productivity gained by the aircraft size and its inherent economies of scale.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1675530)

Carl still has everybody fooled that he is some kind of god.

How could everyone not be convinced of that...given these deity-like good looks?

http://www.back9network.com/wp-conte...addyshack2.gif

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1675931)

Not only can we, but it's vital to continue telling that truth. Few occupations have our level of responsibility for lives.

He didn't say that. Nobody has. I'm saying that the two are clearly disconnected. Our profession has an enormous responsibility for lives attached to it. Our pay is based (somewhat) on the productivity gained by the aircraft size and its inherent economies of scale.

Carl

Exactly.

Here's an idea. How about "RBP" (Responsibility Based Pay) as a major component of our pay? In other words, airline pilots should be extremely well compensated for the enormous responsibility we have. Then add to that the productivity with aircraft size and economies of scale. Bigger airplanes still pay better, but ALL airline pilots are compensated at a level that provides a standard of living comparable to what this profession settled into at the major airline level in the 1980's through early 2000's. No more poverty level pilot jobs carrying passengers under 121. Takes away management's primary incentive to outsource our jobs while at the same time making sure this profession is compensated appropriately. (They can add a $5 "pilot compensation fee" if they aren't smart enough to figure out how to increase revenue and/or cut other costs. :rolleyes:)

Okay... just woke up from my dream. ALPA is still here. Lee Moak and "proactive engagement" are still alive and well. Never going to happen. Disregard. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 1675744)

We should get Congress to fix it…. never mind. :o

Or someone with a phone and a pen.:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1675931)

What is laughable is that you still believe that is the only way to go. I guess as long as you remain on top of the mountain that is the way it must be.:rolleyes:

If Iraq blows up and oil hits $140/bbl, what are you gonna downbid to? Your ego gonna be able to handle it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1675615)

You know, it would be nice if even one time there could be a discussion about issues based on logic and reason and not emotion and attack. Seriously, do United and American have pay banding? Does Southwest have a single pay rate? What other domestic/international competitors do we have on the scale of Delta? So who is different? I will let you answer the questions and see if you can even tell the truth about known facts or if you will just attack.

A little advice, when you try to argue on emotion and attack you will lose every time. This is a business negotiation about money, nothing more, nothing less. If you treat it like some high school popularity contest you will be crushed. I expect the next words to come out of your mouth to be "he can't sit at our table, this is the cool kids table". That is your level of discourse.

Our contract is riddled with tradeoffs of pay and productivity. Why isn't our vacation day worth 3:30 or 5:45 or 15:00 hours? That is a trade. Why is the ALV 72 -84 and not 15-20? That is a trade. Why don't we have unlimited sick leave? That is a trade. Why do we have any training freezes at all? That is a trade. I could go on and on.

Anyone that ever white slips, green slips, swaps trips for more pay, or doesn't try to personal drop every one of their assigned trips is simply selling jobs for money. To try to equate this issue with a moral crusade is just emotional claptrap that is designed to deflect from the facts on the ground.

Management wannabe? Shadow MEC? Seriously, just win the debate in the arena of facts and logic. At least if you are not scared of that. One advantage of facing very trying circumstances is you get a little clarity on what is important and what is not. Kick me out of the cool kids table and shun me and call me internet names. See if I care one little bit.

This logic would be fine if you'd always used it. But you haven't. It's been saved for a time when we're producing spectacular financial results. Back when our finances were poor, your logic was that we had to wait until our management team produced "strong and sustained profits" before we could have the leverage to make strong contractual gains. Now that we're strong (and sustained so), you're saying "everything is a trade off."

There's a lack of consistency in your logic.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 1675727)

From the way I understand it, a lot of guys signed of on C2012, and the low pay raises, because we would be right back at the table for another bite at the apple in 2015. If we don't actually get to bite until 2017, or 2018, then maybe we should have held out for bigger pay raises. At some point, the streams cross. :)

Many on here were saying we'd be back for another bite at the apple well prior to 2015. When there were rumors of us strong arming management for pay raises during the FAR 117 negotiations, I started to think those guys might have gotten it right.

Oh well.

Carl