Originally Posted by Fly4hire (Post 1686920)

Alpha,

Nice try mixing up various aspects of where process went off the rails. I never said policy manual, I referenced meeting vs. conference call, parliamentary process and where direction can be given. Roberts rules and all that. Meeting direction - yes, conference call - no. Any disagreement so far? It is fact the majority of the Reps said don't mess with PS on the CC , yet it happened. How do you think that happened? Where it happened was the MEC Ch and Neg Ch did not follow the process they laid out for the MEC for how they would handle the process if they were unable to meet direction. That was not manual, or Roberts, but thier word, which they broke.

Once it was in the MEC hands process was followed and the debate that took place followed process at that point. No I did not agree with vote, but THAT was democratic process. And as I recall I talked with just about everyone, and if you don't think it was a arm twist with the legions that appeared to plug for it until there were enough MEC votes to pass it I don't know what is.

What got us there was gerrymandered, or at the very least a heavy thumb on the scale. I have heard all your arguements before about negotiating committees of 19 Reps, and the authority of the Ch and Negs to cut a deal, closing, and that the MEC, pilots, etc. can always turn it down. And that all belies the fact that it was delivered to us in a flawed, arguably less than democratic fashion that many feel did not give Delta pilots the contract they desired, or expressed in the survey.

Of course you and others argued that if we turn it down we'd get worse, undermine Negotiators credibility, end up parked by the NMB, end up like AMR, lose the TVM of money, etc. which of course is an argument that you can't really turn anything down and that once a TA is achieved the momentum on it being ratified is high and turned down low, which was IMO the whole reason to do the deal before the MEC had a chance to object to the result, which was of course this was entirely premeditated. Never mind a negotiator I privately cornered who I asked what would happen if we did and stated we'd probably be back in negotiations the next day and have a better deal in two weeks, but his was a minority opinion also.

Again, I have no problem being in the minority - I usually am. What I do have a problem with is not following process - the entire way, including the closing of the TA, and redirection if stated goals are not met. If you want to accuse me of pandering, sour grapes and all the other nonsense your bedside manner is notorious for, from the winners version of history have at it. I won't even fire back with hyperbole at how offensive I find your condescension from your smartest guy in the room view point, and that I think it does not serve the best interest of the Delta pilots. Apparently majority of Reps had enough heartburn with what occurred to lose confidence in OM and try a different direction with King. As has been evidenced some on the MEC don't like changing direction, which does does not bode well for C2015 IMO.

What I AM concerned is that the MEC admin and Negs fight for the contract the pilots say they desire and the Reps direct them to attain, and if not they get proper redirection and follow it.

Democracy also means as a facilitator thereof as a member of the MEC administration you follow the direction you are given, not create your own.

Originally Posted by Doug Masters (Post 1686937)

I can't. I don't have the hottest wife, the kids go to public school, they aren't the best athletes on the team, and they don't get the best grades. ;)

Originally Posted by Doug Masters (Post 1686937)

I can't. I don't have the hottest wife, the kids go to public school, they aren't the best athletes on the team, and they don't get the best grades. ;)

Originally Posted by CheapTrick (Post 1686954)

Newnan's available.
:D

Originally Posted by biigD (Post 1686951)

Kudos to your -80 guys that popped one at V1 in CLT today. I didn't witness it firsthand, but the chatter in our crewroom is that your crew did a great job. :)

MD88 don't care! It just sprays sh^# all over 18C!

Originally Posted by UGBSM (Post 1686894)

You are kind of coming across as spoiled. If you don't live in ATL of course you have to commute in, probably the day prior for a short call that early. YOU made that choice when YOU decided not to live in base.

You know it wasn't that long ago when commuting to reserve at all was impossible. Before we had jumpseat and short call was twice a day "windows". Be more grateful. You have more options than I ever did.

Originally Posted by Fly4hire (Post 1686969)

As far as condescension, I don't characterize those who make a choice I disagree with as too stupid, lazy or weak. And I'd say you are far more skilled than me in framing and manipulating the discussion to suit your point of view and perspective.

Originally Posted by Denny Crane (Post 1686805)

Not sure I'd call that a defeatist attitude.

Doesn't a pilot look at a situation and then try to anticipate all possible outcomes so he can devise a plan to succeed and come out on top? Is his outcome not possible?

Denny