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Originally Posted by GunshipGuy
(Post 1687281)
Do all ALPA workers have this much disdain for non-volunteers who are merely dues paying members? Is this something you're taught on day one? Really, I had no idea because all the volunteers I've dealt with have always been very professional, generous with their time, and willing to hear my concerns. But maybe when you're behind your keyboard you can let your true feelings run wild. At ALPA meetings while you're having a beer at my expense do you share your disgust for the members who merely just pay their dues? :eek: If you're going to call someone out for using the internet to exchange thoughts and ideas while desiring to remain anonymous then maybe you should use your real name in your signature. That said, don't expect a name--the TOS doesn't require it.
I've got no a problem with a "no voter", but I do have a problem with a member who insults the intelligence, efforts, and motivation of other members using nothing but preconceived fallacious notions, rumors, lies, and vitriol. Vote yes, vote no, I don't give a flying ******* either way, but its supremely disrespectful and unprofessional to channel that onto lobbing personal attacks against those who do step forward and work for their fellow pilots. |
Originally Posted by shiznit
(Post 1687309)
Fair enough, the diff will only be around $11.50 by excluding it as I clearly posted.
The +PS was separately shown after the straight calculation, just to show a more complete "big picture view" of what is working for a pilot in Section 3. I find it less than accurate to not factor in the primary ways of accruing income in the PWA, especially when it is a direct add-on in percentage points to the pay hours received for a year of employment. It would have been better "forum decorum" to post that separately I suppose. The intent was to dispel the "$40/hr more" fallacy. I hope that part was demonstrated clearly. |
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 1687007)
My assertion is that I have complete confidence in the pilots to decide their own fate.
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 1687007)
In fact, my history shows that if I lose a vote I back the winner and provide any assistance possible.
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 1687007)
That is how you build a strong organization. If you try to rip it apart every time your personal desires are not satisfied then you are making us all weaker. It is not about you, it is about the group.
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 1687007)
62%-38% or whatever the final number was, I forget now, that is a powerful democratic response that the pilots accepted this contract.
Carl |
Originally Posted by shiznit
(Post 1687322)
It's not disdain for non-volunteers... It's disdain for uninformed comments that personally denigrate people he knows nothing about, and disparaging the people who have stepped up to try and improve things.
I've got no a problem with a "no voter", but I do have a problem with a member who insults the intelligence, efforts, and motivation of other members using nothing but preconceived fallacious notions, rumors, lies, and vitriol. Vote yes, vote no, I don't give a flying ******* either way, but its supremely disrespectful and unprofessional to channel that onto lobbing personal attacks against those who do step forward and work for their fellow pilots. |
Originally Posted by UGBSM
(Post 1687262)
Well that doesn't make sense. Of course you didn't choose to be mandatorily displaced anymore than you would choose to be furloughed. I've personally experienced that as well.
But you can always choose where you live as a delta pilot. If don't relish spending negotiating capital to support your voluntary lifestyle choice. Sometimes I think commuters have an entitlement mindset because they think everyone commutes. Or claim 6000 do. Old topic tho... No, I think a huge number of pilots were hired when we had a whole bunch of smaller bases in places that were 'nicer' to live, than the ATL. Places (and bases) like DFW, ORD, MSY, IAH, MIA, BOS, PDX, etc. If, in my interview, they had told me, "You MUST live in ATL area or commute for the rest of your career..." I would have gotten up and walked out, and taken that job with American, where I would still be flying out of MIA in the winter, and BOS in the summer, and I'd still have a RETIREMENT plan. :rolleyes: Delta has Fked over the Delta pilots hired in 1978-1991 more than any other group. Maybe you just haven't been around long enough to see how good it was, before Ron Allen took it into the toilet in 1993. Nobody WANTS to commute, but given the choice of living in ATL, vs. commuting from a much nicer place, well, I'll commute. Problem was, I was PROMISED I wouldn't have to live in ATL. The fact is, commuters save the company a lot of money. How? We show up in LAX when we are based in ATL, on time, no hotel, no perdiem. Oh, I was also promised I'd have a retirement plan. So, I got that going for me. |
Originally Posted by shiznit
(Post 1687125)
Not quite right.... DAL 2015 A330 12 yr CA: $255.28 (DAL PWA p.3-9) UAL 2015 A330 12 yr CA: $262.38 (UPA p.29) AAL 2015 A330 12 yr CA: $221.63* (AMR-APA Agreement p.3-7) AAL 2016 A330 12 yr CA: $226.06* (AMR-APA Agreement p.3-8) *AMR-APA Agreement Supplement A (an LOA) specifies that AA will negotiate an "Industry Comparable Pay Rate Adjustment" to take effect as of Jan. 1 2016. It's a weighted average of UAL and DAL rates. As of Jan. 1, 2017 (21 months into DAL negotiations) the AA 330 pay rate will be approximately: $266.82 AA has no PS, in 2017 the effective DAL A330 rate with a 10% PS payout will be $280.81. That is still $14.00 more than AA. Got to go straight pay to straight pay. Can't add profit sharing into the equation. Fact is, they beat us straight up, which is a good thing. Time to step it up and raise the bar. Industry is watching and our turn to produce All numbers directly from the USAirways merger transition agreement. So, as you can see, they have already raised the bar. Side note. Those that say we don't have leverage. You are not correct. We need unity. Once we have unity we have all the leverage we need. Don't think so? Just wander over to the Cargo forum and read about the drafts happening now and the resulting service failures at FedEx. Here is the truth. Read below to see how they eventually top Delta by $40 per hour in the 767-400, a330 etc. THE USAIRWAYS MERGER TRANSITION AGREEMENT Effective on the the date of P.O.R. Which is 12/9/13. First, some work rules. This agreement provides for a 1:2 for sit times in excess of two hours. Distance learning: 50% of hourly rate. Training: 4:00 per day. (Delta 3:45) Defined contribution: Currently 14% January 2014: 16% Delta: 15% Sick: 5 hours accrued per month 60 short term banked 940 long terms bank 1000 total and with rollover. Allowed to sell back. Rapid re-accrual of 7.5 hrs if out more than 30 days United has 7hrs Delta no rapid re-accrual, no rollover, no sell back and capped at 270 max. Home basing in cities that support it. COMPENSATION: All 12 year rates. 777 rates reflect group 4 which include 777, 767-4, 787, 340. On POR, the first raise came. A320 capt. 167.68. F/O 114.02 B777 capt. 213.02. F/O 144.00 January 2014. 8% increase. A320 capt. 181.00. F/O 123.14 B777 capt. 230.06. F/O 156.44 January 2015. 3% increase. A320 capt. 186.53. F/O 236.06 B777 capt. 236.00. F/O 161.00 January 2016. 16.5% increase. A320 capt. 217.24. F/O 147.72 B777 capt. 275.98. F/O 187.67 If needed, on January 2017 a 3.5% increase. On January 2018, a 3.5% increase. Why if needed you might ask? Here is the rest of the story. From the MTA: "MTA provides parity review that compares DAL and UAL as of January 1, 2016. The parity review will use the average of the DAL and UAL pay rates of the A320 and the 737-800 aircraft weighted for the ASM's flown by each airline." The other groups will be adjusted from there. Now, when the APA (USAPA will be offered a seat at the table along with the west pilots) negotiates their JCBA, these numbers can change. Likely up, not expecting down. Other considerations. AMR pilots getting near $100k each from their portion of the company on exit/merger. Frozen DB plans. Overall, the APA did well. If we are still in section six in 2017-18, they top us by $40 per on the 330/767-4. That was a pretty nice bar they set. Personally, I'd never complain about the 4 hour penalty lap in Atlanta if we had their 1:2 after a two hour sit. The extra cabbage they get in the 401k be nice too. |
Originally Posted by UGBSM
(Post 1687262)
Well that doesn't make sense. Of course you didn't choose to be mandatorily displaced anymore than you would choose to be furloughed. I've personally experienced that as well.
But you can always choose where you live as a delta pilot. If don't relish spending negotiating capital to support your voluntary lifestyle choice. Sometimes I think commuters have an entitlement mindset because they think everyone commutes. Or claim 6000 do. Old topic tho... |
Originally Posted by TheManager
(Post 1687345)
Overall, the APA did well.
"A new contract at Delta triggered an agreement-in-principal for the pilots at United, which helped improve the market comparisons being used at our negotiating table. In short, the bar was raised" |
Originally Posted by GunshipGuy
(Post 1687284)
If you want to be intellectually honest you'll also mention everything that was given up by the pilot group before bankruptcy and during bankruptcy, as well as the work rules that were sacrificed and will never be regained. If you want to present a honest and complete picture that is. Or just mention a rule that was good that is now gone for each positive one you mention. Just listing one-sided points is disingenuous for the argument you're making.
my qol was much better 13 years ago treading water and no rescue boat in sight, the alpo crowd is at the dock not helping to save us |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1687330)
No, I think a huge number of pilots were hired when we had a whole bunch of smaller bases in places that were 'nicer' to live, than the ATL. Places (and bases) like DFW, ORD, MSY, IAH, MIA, BOS, PDX, etc.
If, in my interview, they had told me, "You MUST live in ATL area or commute for the rest of your career..." I would have gotten up and walked out, and taken that job with American, where I would still be flying out of MIA in the winter, and BOS in the summer, and I'd still have a RETIREMENT plan. :rolleyes: Delta has Fked over the Delta pilots hired in 1978-1991 more than any other group. Maybe you just haven't been around long enough to see how good it was, before Ron Allen took it into the toilet in 1993. Nobody WANTS to commute, but given the choice of living in ATL, vs. commuting from a much nicer place, well, I'll commute. Problem was, I was PROMISED I wouldn't have to live in ATL. The fact is, commuters save the company a lot of money. How? We show up in LAX when we are based in ATL, on time, no hotel, no perdiem. Oh, I was also promised I'd have a retirement plan. So, I got that going for me. What I despise is the sad sack, victim mentality that viscerally permeates the very souls of the doomsday airline preppers that have no perspective on life (airline or otherwise). Whiners not builders. Visionless complainers without a clue. They are the lobsters that reach up to pull the lone escaper back into the pot. We are where we are. We do need the perspective of how and why we are here in order to move forward. We can't live in that past. We need to move forward. The wimpy whiners are deadweight in that trajectory. Unity enables change and we don't have it yet. Rant over. Timbo, your post just triggered a rant. Nothing personal at all. I enjoy your posts. |
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