Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1721616)

No leverage is necessary, as this is not a leverageable issue. I can't reconcile just who we are trying to protect here. It is a pretty senor airplane. Not as "old" as the 777, but old nonetheless. 4 are leaving, and that is all that has been officially announced. Let's say that's 50 displacements for discussion. The bottom 25 cannot hold the 777, and are probably not 63, so they ain't leaving. They will displace anyway. OR... you get 25 other guys with retirement packages firmly in hand to walk away. The 25 are saved and get to go on flying for NWA for a few more years. Then the next batch comes along. What then? Oh... but the fences will be down by then....

What if they displace? So what. The 747s are not going away tomorrow, so when the ones that remain DO retire, they will probably be able to go back.... or not, because the fences will be down by then and they are likely not senior enough to hold it. Hmmmmmm.

If this skips seniority, it is flat out wrong.

This whole thing REEKS of a GASSS KLOWD. :D

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1721339)

So the 747 guys will get preference over seniority? KMFA.

Originally Posted by Check Essential (Post 1721624)

As far as the leverage -- I don't know what we should get because I don't have the cost figures. ALPA presumably does. I have lots of suggestions. Instead of paying all the money to 25 of the most senior captains why don't we give a little to everyone. Make vacation pay 3:30. Bump international override by a few cents. etc. etc. Take your pick.

Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy (Post 1721628)

Frankly, I agree that I don't like the skipping seniority part -- but it makes zero economic sense to do it straight seniority wise, so that was never a realistic option. You'd have a hundred non-747 guys, who are 64+ take the money and run and it just creates a massive training waterfall.

My prediction is if they needed to get rid of 50 (for 4 aircraft), there will still be displacements coming in early 2015, as the guys most likely to take the ER will be the 747 Captains over age 64, meaning they haven't really solved the manning issue. And when sorted by age, the 50th oldest 747A doesn't turn 65 until Sep 2017, three years from now. They're not gonna hold guys that long.

Originally Posted by Dirtdiver (Post 1721631)

Leave it overmanned until attrition takes care of it. DALPA doesn't need to solve the company's problems caused by a dysfunctional fleet plan.

Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy (Post 1721628)

Frankly, I agree that I don't like the skipping seniority part -- but it makes zero economic sense to do it straight seniority wise, so that was never a realistic option. You'd have a hundred non-747 guys, who are 64+ take the money and run and it just creates a massive training waterfall.

My prediction is if they needed to get rid of 50 (for 4 aircraft), there will still be displacements coming in early 2015, as the guys most likely to take the ER will be the 747 Captains over age 64, meaning they haven't really solved the manning issue. And when sorted by age, the 50th oldest 747A doesn't turn 65 until Sep 2017, three years from now. They're not gonna hold guys that long.

Originally Posted by Check Essential (Post 1721624)

Instead of paying all the money to 25 of the most senior captains why don't we give a little to everyone. Make vacation pay 3:30. Bump international override by a few cents. etc. etc. Take your pick.

Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy (Post 1721636)

Look at the ages - available by downloading the most recent seniority list off Deltanet. Attrition would take 2-3 years; Delta's not gonna wait that long, so at least some displacements would be likely.

Originally Posted by Alan Shore (Post 1721639)

Because then those senior guys would not leave early, and isn't that the whole point?

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 1721638)

Then tell them to get in a displacement bid.

I don't think it will target anyone over 64. I'll betcha it will be guys between 62 and 64, because the 64 year old guys won't ever have to displace anyway.