That's a sharp plane.

I wouldn't be surprised if it flew before the 787

Cheers
George

you're probably right

Whoa, there...where's the spite? Where have I told you that you're wrong? The world is changing, and you acknowledge that. We must either adapt to the real world circumstances or risk the Darwinian consequences of the failure to adapt. I posed some possible (even probable in some circles) scenarios to you. You answered with demands and wants. I asked you again how you get there from here. You respond

"The pilots of DAL want a win, and do not want to see more of their flying dolled out to other entities."

I want a win, too. I've asked for your suggestion on how we get there. You haven't given one other than throw our weight around. That we "deserve" something.

While you may view it as a simple request, it doesn't have a simple answer. You know that. Tell me how the Japanese bilateral is going to turn out. Tell me about Haneda access. Tell me about JAL's future health and scope after their restructuring. Tell me about the Japanese and US economy next year. Tell me about the price of oil over the next 5 years.

Then I'll give you a simple answer.

Far from it. See above.

Please go back to the main point. What if those existing jobs are under threat from all the forces listed above. What if there was a way to preserve all those jobs? What if only some of those jobs are economically viable, a la Frankfurt? btw, I didn't talk to people about what happened there, I lived it.

Here's the MEC mission statement:
“To reverse the decline, stabilize and improve the pay, working conditions, retirement, benefits and job security of the Delta Pilots; to always be mindful of Safety and Security.”

Everything the MEC does is guided by that statement. Whether the Japanese bilateral stands as currently written, is traded away by our government for a false "open skies" or our competitors are allowed access to Haneda with their coalition partners while Delta is frozen out, you can expect the MEC to adapt as directed by their mission statement above. To quote another writer, it's real simple.

The Starship Enterprise just might fly before the 787. :)

Scoop

I am sorry, but this is just a bunch of baloney. If you look at our contract in bankruptcy, our bankruptcy returns, our stock from the merger, and our contract gains in the merger, can you find any other pilot group that came out of this better off than we did? Do you think that management just gave that up easily? How about the shareholders?

We took 13% of the company coming out of bankruptcy. 13%. $1.3 billion when we sold it. What do you think the other creditors said when they saw that figure? Do you think they said "oh gee, they are nice fellows, let's give that up" or do you think they all took a massive dump simultaneously which probably dropped the water pressure in New York for a while? They treated that claim like we were stealing their children.

So we sell our stock at the equivalent of $25 a share to a bunch of big time investors, and the stock has NEVER sold for a price higher than that. Now the merger comes along and we say to those same guys, "hey we want 5.5% of the company back from you." What do you think the reaction to that was? They were laughing at us until we got the stock and then they were hated us.

If you remember, NW and the NW pilots were the leaders in establishing a joint venture. The match with KLM allowed them to fly from a bunch of non hub cities to AMS, routes they could never justify without the joint venture. Look at PIT-CDG and PHL-CDG, we could never fly those routes without our joint venture with Air France. Heck, CVG-CDG would probably be gone without it.

The key to the joint venture is to avoid getting caught as the domestic only partner. Since our code share with Air France, our international flying has increased dramatically, some of it due to the code share, some of it not. The Delta MEC has led the way in creating a mutual support arrangement with the KLM/Air France unions and getting that mutual support written into our contract. That is not in management's interest, that is in the Delta pilots' interest.

If we develop a JV with JAL, then you will probably see the same evolution. First, the MEC will travel to Tokyo for a meeting with the JAL pilots. Sometime they will travel to the US and meet with our MEC. Next, we will get involved into the corporate agreement between the two sides from the very beginning so that we can ensure our interests are considered from step 1. Finally, we will negotiate Joint Venture language into our contract which will ensure that growth is shared between the two groups. Most likely, along the way, people like you will claim this is all concessionary. Right up until we start adding flights to Haneda.

If you have any questions, ask Hauenstein if our international footprint would grow or shrink without the AF/KLM joint venture. He will state unequivocally that it would shrink. Our domestic system would take a hit also, primarily in gauge. Glen does not get involved in pilot negotiations so he just says what he thinks.

A joint venture can be a gain for the company and a loss for the pilots. It can also be a gain for both. We have managed the AF/KLM joint venture so that is has benefited both. I am pretty sure a JAL joint venture would be the same thing.

In January, less than 3 years from bankruptcy, we will pretty much have the best contract amongst the network carriers. How did that happen?

Here it is in a nutshell:

“To reverse the decline, stabilize and improve the pay, working conditions, retirement, benefits and job security of the Delta Pilots; to always be mindful of Safety and Security.”

What does this mean exactly?

Does anyone know what management needs from us to make this deal happen? And if so, they are already making offers that would commit the Corporation to a plan of action. Does this mean they already have (or don't need) our agreement?

If we're paying a Billion to add a codeshare partner which also cuts American off at the knees, so be it. If we're going to outsource our feed in a Country where we have 5th freedom rights, that's another.

Based on those in the know, this is all about gaining & maintaining access in Haneda.

If anyone cares to remember, I wrote that NRT was not that much of a crown jewel. Not only does the new airport reduce NRT's relevance, but the 787 and similar aircraft make connecting less of a necessity. The 767 drastically reduced the need for hubbing to 747's over the Atlantic. The 787 will hit the 747 and the 777 in the same fashion over the Pacific.

ACL jumps on me for not responding quickly enough and you say that I'm spending too much time here. Would you guys get together and work it out for me?:p

Just another anonymous webboard pseudonym fighting for truth on the internet!;)

If you have any questions, ask Hauenstein if our international footprint would grow or shrink without the AF/KLM joint venture. He will state unequivocally that it would shrink. Our domestic system would take a hit also, primarily in gauge. Glen does not get involved in pilot negotiations so he just says what he thinks.


Alfa,

Not disagreeing with the first 2 sentences above but I think it is a little naive to think that he just says what he thinks and "darn" the consequences. (The last seemed implied to me.)

Denny

Slow,

This is not a plan, it is a goal. What's the plan to get to the goal?

Denny