Wait......I've been doing it wrong???

 

Are you sure you aren't thinking about a contractual requirement? Didn't 12 day trips exist pre-117?

The old rules required 24 hours free from duty in the last 7 days. 117 requires 30 hours free from duty in the last 168 hours (7 days). During the rule making, I remember the FAA saying they wanted to up the 24 hours to 36 hours initially, but backed off to 30 hours for the final rule, saying that a 36 hours off requirement may do more harm than good in terms of our schedules and the airlines scheduling ability. The hope was that 30 hours offered a better chance at a full calendar day off in the stretch, where 24 hours didn't.

117 requires the 30 hours to be prospectively given, where I'm not 100% sure if the old 24 hours had to be. Whether it did or not, 117 doesn't allow for a 24 hour layover to turn into a 30+ hour layover if a cancellation occurs at hour 20. The only way for the 30 hour rest to be reset in 117, is for the 30 hours to be prospectively known completely in advance. So a 24 hour layover turning into a 44 hour layover, at hour 20, would not satisfy a 30 hour rest reset, unless the pilot had 30 hours off from the 20 hour mark and the layover turned into a 50 hour layover at hour 20.

One follow up note, is the pilot is off duty until the 24 hour mark and may not find out about the cancellation until reporting at the 24 hour mark or checking their schedule prior to leaving the hotel. In that case, their layover would have to become at least 54 hours to satisfy a 30 hour rest reset in 117.

http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/fa...-FTDT-Rule.pdf

Federal Register/ Vol. 77, No. 2 / Wednesday, January 4, 2012 / Rules and Regulations
11. Rest
Carriers will be required to provide their crew with a 10-hour rest opportunity prior to commencing a duty period that includes flying. While the 10-hour rest period may include the amount of time it takes to get to or from a flightcrew member’s house or hotel room, the actual amount of time required for a sleep opportunity may not be reduced below 8 hours. In addition, the length of continuous time off during a 7-day period has been extended from 24 hours under the existing rules to 30 hours. Additional time off is required for individuals whose internal clock may be off because of flipping back and forth between different time zones

 

You and I have went down this road before and you are wrong.

It is not a contract issue. 117 did away with the 30 block hour limit in 7 days and replaced it with a 30 hour rest in 168 hour rolling period. After our last go around I don't think you really worked for an airline pre 117 because anyone who did knows 117 made it WAY easier for companies to schedule us for consecutive days in a row. It has NOTHING to do with the required break in duty, but the 30 hour block limit in 7 days disappearing.

 

(In a bad southern accent ) Cuz that's the way we always done it son.

 

That's not correct. It was 24 hours off. Did not matter where. The big difference from a domestic standpoint was you could not exceed 30 block hours in 7 days. That tended to spread domestic hours around more.

 

I would bet not one single person EVER did more than 5 domestic trips pre 117. Sure international trips worked....I'm not even sure if the 30 in 7 block hour limit applied to international flying. As far as domestic flying goes, you could not back up two 4 days in a row pre 117 because you would almost always run into the 30 in 7 violation. The fact you don't know this tells me you never flew 121 for an airline pre 117. Did you?

 

Your talking about SLC right? Aircraft at 15,000 go over a 13,000 peak and get a spike on the radalt.

Scoop

 

If you are the CA then I would ask why you are ignoring the company guidelines. If your the FO I would politely point out that the company places passenger comfort behind only safety in the list of priorities.

 

Exactly. The fact that 404yxl jumps in every time we bring this up and tells us we are crazy and 117 is way better tells me he never worked under the old rules and ran into the 30 in 7 violation. Every regional pilot in the world had that at least a couple times a month pre 117.

 

You're talking about two different things here. 30 hours in 7 replaced 24 hours in 7. 30 hours of block in 7 days was replaced with a 60 hours of flight duty in 7 days.

You were arguing that pre-117 was better because you were guaranteed a day off in base. That was never the case. It only guaranteed 24 hours free from duty. 117 requires more, 30 hours of rest, so I don't see your gripe with that issue. I'll ask you again, didn't 12 day trips exist pre-117?

While 117 did eliminate the 30 hours of block hours in 7 days, it gave us 60 hours of flight duty limit in 7 days. The old rules could have allowed 80+ hours of flight duty in 7 days.

I also worked 121 pre-117 and I have had a lot more time at home and more rest during trips than pre-117.

I didn't mention anything about you being crazy. As for you agreeing with Sailing, he stated the same thing I was, there was no requirement for 24 hours off in base pre-117. Your earlier statement was getting on the pre-117 rules guaranteeing you a day off in base every 7 days and I just corrected you that it was 24 hours free from duty. Now you are talking about 30 hours of block in 7, which is a different issue. I don't disagree that went away, but we also had no limit on flight duty in the 7 days pre-117, and now we have a 60 hour limit.