Carl Spackler

..........

slowplay

I mixed two posts in my response and created confusion. Sorry.

I don't deny that ALPA has made mistakes. Big ones. We just finished up 4 years of disastrous "leadership" of our International union. TM is ALPA. Not controlling the airline pilot licensing or supply (such as AMA, ABA). When we didn't control that, figuring out job portability or seniority when poorly managed companies failed. When we didn't control that, not figuring out how to deal with deregulation quickly enough. Not getting labor protective provisions enforced or controlling scope after deregulation happened. Not being relevant in Washington during the Reagan years and watching unions be dismantled after the PATCO strike. Winding the clock after 9/11 as legacy airlines and pensions got crushed.

ALPA's made plenty of mistakes.

It does get tiresome, however, when members want to repeat some of those same mistakes that ALPA made by looking in the rear view mirror of what was. Yup, that's where we were...but it's a little more important to know where we are. George's post is one of those. Sinkr8 explains it well. In addition, we've got a bunch of guys on here that like looking backwards, even as they used those undercutting mainline jobs or RJ's to build toward what they now claim was birthright...that their expectations haven't been met. Please.

The comment I viewed as a cheap shot was

It's clear what motivates George...

Gunfighter

At the 8:00 point in the webcast Ed says "You will not see labor cost escalation at Delta in any meaningful way over the next several years." 2013 is within the next several years. I would have preferred to hear that he is planning for pilot labor costs comparable to 2000 levels.

Carl Spackler

You're one to talk. This was back when Forgot to Bid was known as "Forgot anyone was watching"






Carl

DAL 88 Driver

I'm determined to correct your misunderstanding of this issue. I completely agree that lower paying airline jobs (regionals, struggling majors, etc.) should not be. Airline pilots should be highly compensated commensurate with the tremendous responsibility for lives, the aptitude, expertise, and experience necessary to do the job safely, and the significant risks to our careers all along the way. I'm all for making airline pilots in all segments of the industry highly paid!

But the reality has been for a very long time that airline pilots pursuing the career (especially from a civilian background) have had to endure some very low paying jobs to get to the point where they are hired at the top tier major airlines. This is the reality of how virtually every civilian background pilot got to a major carrier like Delta!

Now... when the situation in the industry was such that a career at one of these top tier carriers was TWICE what it is today, "paying your dues" with low paying jobs made sense. It wasn't any fun making poverty wages. But it was what you HAD to do to get to where you ultimately wanted to be! The only other choice a civilian pilot had was to choose another profession. There was no other viable path to achieving the career objective!

I can honestly tell you that, if this career been worth HALF of what it was when I was getting into it in the mid 1980's (like it is today), there is no way on this earth I could have justified it! No matter how much I loved flying (and still do)... it would not have been a viable option for me or for my family.

So I would appreciate it if you would quit insulting those of us who got into this profession under a completely different set of circumstances and expectations than what we have today, and did what was required to succeed. Thank you.

Sink r8

Now there is a cute, catchy sentence that shows you're not really bothering to read the entire post before you respond. I was making the argument the company's on a deadline, for a change. The NPRM adds a twist I don't think they normally have. Usually, we're simply left begging in an economic uptrend, and the name of the game is stalling us long enough. But in this case, I suspect the NPRM is too big a disruption. That, and the fact Bastian is selling the prospect of a lovely, Southwest-like athmosphere, tells me we could have a little leverage and a time constraint they want to jump through.

I'm more concerned that we wouldn't negotiate for the right things, than about this dragging on and on. In this case, I don't think going on past 2013 would be a proof of success. The 11th hour is gone, the Street loses faith, and they go into a more defensive posture, and we start measuring time with a solar calendar.

This is why I'd like to see us knee-deep in discussions about what contract would be acceptable to the Delta pilots, very careful and deliberate discussions upfront, as opposed to the usual "what-the-F-happened-to-us-again" post-mortems so common around here.

Sink r8

Another area we can agree on, and ironically another area where Carl and Slow disagree: the RJ pilots are not to blame for the existence of their segment of the industry, or the conditions it offers, or the fact regional flying has becoming a stepping-stone to the majors.

We all agree the RJ segment should not exist, but we disagree as to the cause of the problem.

The fact remains that every RJ that was flown at a regional was either coughed up under duress, or sold, or stupidly given away, by the respective pilot group at the major. You can't quit making mistakes if you can't acknowledge the error. That includes me, and the overwhelming majority of pilots, ALPA or not: we've voted for contracts that actually made the RJ problem worse.

It's pretty simple, really.

georgetg

hey slow, I sent you a PM with my phone number email etc.
You obviously know who I am. Feel free to contact me.

If you care to elevate the discouse you know what to do
if on the other hand you just care to discredit me or my opinion keep going...
You're doing great!

He'll I'll even buy you a beer if you care to have a face to face conversation.

Cheers
George

DAL 88 Driver

Well said, Sink r8. The only distinction/correction I'd like to make is that regional flying has ALWAYS been a stepping stone to the majors. Nothing has changed in that regard... except that it now generally requires MORE time spent at the regional because there are fewer mainline jobs and more regional jobs... and the career is no longer worth the sacrifice! That, as you say, is our fault at the majors for giving away those jobs via relaxation in scope and for agreeing to obscene, unheard-of pay cuts.

Sink r8

Right: we've turned the stepping stones into stone paths, and the stone paths onto eight-lane concrete highways.

Some of these discussions are actually getting interesting, but I'm starting to log to much life-simulator time, and the real and family lives suffer accordingly. I'm out for a while.

Regards,

Sink r8.