Airline Pilot Central Forums - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

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The credit card thing might not be all Delta's idea. I was commuting one day and sat next to an exec for AMEX. He said that the Delta Skymiles card is their biggest money maker. Didn't they also provide the exit financing? Could be a case of "an offer you can't refuse".

Quote:

Originally Posted by WidgetDriver (Post 981509)

I talked to someone who has some inside knowledge of ALPA about this issue. He said the problem with pursuing this issue is that DALPA argued the opposite position when ASA and CMR filed for a single list based on this very same issue. He went on to say that if DALPA does a 180 and starts to make the same argument that ASA and CMR made, it COULD open up the opportunity for CMR to come back and file for a single list again.

I don't know about you, but I am definately not interested in doing something that allows CMR to force a single list with us.

This person went on to say that if we filed this grievance, management could go back and pull out the DALPA arguments made against saying that ASA, CMR, and DAL were a single carrier. They would just throw those arguments we made right back at us.

Not sure what to make of it all. Interested to see what Alfa, Pineapple, Slowplay, and ACL think of all this.

My position is that I don't have any legal training and every one of these issues is beyond my capacity to make a judgement. Not trying to punt, but I'm a pilot and not a lawyer. When I need surgery, I go to a surgeon and not the knife drawer in the kitchen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiznit (Post 981505)

All I ask is that if they do and the grievance fails, that the DPA crowd give credit for DALPA standing up for us, and not pulling a "you stink if you don't fight it, and you still stink if you fight and lose because you didn't win".

As long as the grievance is vigorously fought, I would give DALPA huge credit. The problem is, I'm certain ALPA national will not allow that. National with fight every step of the way and withhold experts and money to: "ensure pilots contracts reflect what is best for the profession as a whole, and not self-serving." - Lee Moak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiznit (Post 981505)

With the chances of an outcome that doesn't benefit us, DALPA is in a no-win situation no matter how hard they work.

That's a fair concern on your part. I know that if I read the record and see DALPA vigorously defending Section 1, yet we still lose, I would be very pleased with DALPA. Sadly, that will NOT happen. ALPA national feels they have Delta pilots as a wrapped up membership. They want RAH pilots as a wrapped up membership, but they currently don't have them. ALPA's long term strategy dictates they look the other way from the concerns of the Delta "wrapped up" members, in order to gain RAH.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 981530)

What do you do if your surgeon refuses to operate?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WidgetDriver (Post 981509)

That's a familiar scare tactic. Do you remember when this DPA thread first started? Go back and look at what the ALPA apologists were saying what DPA is really all about. One of their arguments was that the DPA is really made up of all North pilots whose hidden agenda is to break off from ALPA so they could void the SLI and re-arbitrate a new seniority list.

This is very typical. There is no possiblity that any pilot group could be forced into a merged seniority list...without a merger! If the ALPA "insiders" are whispering this stuff as an excuse, it just proves to me that they are desperately working to find the correct excuse to justify not defending Delta Scope.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Check Essential (Post 981543)

What do you do if your surgeon refuses to operate?

Work within the system until you either die, or are spontaneously healed.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by WidgetDriver (Post 981526)

We are not a single seniority list because WE argued that Delta, ASA, and CMR were not a single airline or a single transportation system. ASA and CMR argued that we were. That is where our argument with RAH could get us in trouble according to this individual.

I don't have access to it, but apparantly DALPA made some arguments in front of ALPA national years ago stating that ASA, CMR, and DAL were not a single carrier, or single airline. It seems if we make the argument that CHQ and Shuttle are the same airline as Frontier, CMR could then come back and try it again.

I don't know, just what I was told.

Alright let's look at this as a group.

ASA and CMR, wholly owned, come and say that they are an STS with Delta Air Lines. DALPA argues otherwise.

Now, look at what the IBT argued to the NMB when it came to the 07APR11 Determination that when it came to class or craft of pilots that RAH was indeed STS:

1. IBT: the entities are operating as a single transportation system as evidenced by substantial operational integration, common control and ownership, and overlapping senior management and labor relations at each subsidiary. When it comes to flight operations DAL/CMR/ASA did not have substantial integration nor labor integration. You may have shared above and below wing. Also CMR/ASA operated under a CPA, you don't see RAH's various carriers operating under a CPA with Frontier- if I'm not mistaken.

2. IBT: Pilot recruiting for each of its subsidiaries is handled by RAH. In addition, DAL/CMR/ASA all separate. I remember when CHQ bought Shuttle and then the whole Republic thing then the APA caught em' and here came the E170s and multi-certificates and so forth because my roommate at the time was an RAH pilot. To me, the big difference is RAH acquired and integrated all of these airlines immediately (also per the CHQ/IBT section 1 required it) whereas Delta bought ASA and Comair but never integrated them into ma Delta. They were just owned.

3. IBT: contends that further evidence of single carrier status is the fact that all the Pilots of the various subsidiaries have been integrated into a single seniority list. DAL/CMR/ASA never had SSL.

4. IBT: “[RAH] holds out to the public that its operating carriers are part of a consolidated entity.” DAL/CMR/ASA did not operate as Delta Air Lines, they operated as Delta Air Lines or Delta Connection (which began in 1984)

5. IBT: While each of RAH’s subsidiaries is a separate corporate entity with its own FAA operating certificate, their operations are all consolidated and commonly-scheduled under the Frontier brand, and they are held out as single company of affiliates on RAH’s website. Further, the subsidiaries are presented on a consolidated basis for both financial reporting and operating performance. DAL did not hold CMR/ASA out as being the same operation although we do determine scheduling per the CPA but I don't know if I would say even now with CMR that we have consolidated financial and operational performance reporting. I'll check, but imho I've never seen the 10-K's alluding to us as one but rather as "our numbers and then here are the final numbers of our wholly owned CMR".

6. IBT: both ALPA and UTU agree that Frontier is appropriately included in the single transportation system.

7. IBT: rejects FAPA’s main contention that the diverse operations of Chautauqua/RA/Shuttle (fixed-fee) and Frontier (branded) make a single system finding inappropriate.

Now I went back through the NMB Determinations from 1998 and I saw nothing related to Delta pilots except for a rather recent finding for representation of DAL/NWA pilots. So I can't see what DALPA argued.

But DALPA, if they argued what I just put up, I believe would be able to remain consistent with a grievance that says RAH is STS and thus violating our PWA with their 37-seater to 162-seater fleet and their previous argument that DAL and Comair and ASA were not STS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 981530)

Newk is such an interesting guy that he's been known to cure people of narcolepsy just by walking into the room.

So Alfa keep that in your back pocket for later or if you ever change careers and become an air traffic controller.

The STS thing is not what makes the RAH thing have teeth.. it is the findings that the NMB had that brought them to declare an STS that gives our scope case teeth.

As far as a single seniority list with ASA and CMR... while I've got no love for that certain group of CMR types, let's go ahead and get ourselves declared an STS and bring on all of the dedicated connection carriers to an SSL.

Can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs....

80, where have thou gone? Why haseth the 737 treated thee as a cheap Tijuana *****?

Where wereith yout yesterday? Yesterday when it was Friday?