Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-20-2011, 05:40 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,014
Bar, I was very much a supporter of "unity and scope restoration"....However I realized that you and I are in the minority...You decided to bail to Delta, and I decided to circle my wagons here at ASA...We are BOTH victims of several decades of failed ALPA policy...I am now focused on growing my company as you should be focused on growing your company....That puts on opposite sides of the fence...This is the huge failure of this "ALPA apartheid"...Much like the civil war, both sides have a good point...
07-20-2011, 05:41 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 396
Brake,
You're wrong, as is your time line. Were any of your new hire FO sources (including me while on probation) on any Committees, or even employed in 1999-2000?
You're wrong, as is your time line. Were any of your new hire FO sources (including me while on probation) on any Committees, or even employed in 1999-2000?
Anything done by a committee, or coalition, or legal effort generates documentation
Untrue
With regard to this subject, there are boxes. While there is an honest debatewe can make about the merits of "operational integration," the resurrection of the Comair bogeyman is a non sequitur. It just did not happen.
Whatever you say. No offer was thrown out with regard to flow through either. Don't even bother delving into it with a diatribe, because it was. To suggest that CMR and ASA MECs were not acutely aware of the response that was expected from the Delta MEC, did not have their next move planned with members NOT on their MECs from the assured denial of the PID, and not pushing the best deal for their pilots possible (NOT a staple) is disingenuous at best, and an outright lie being more likely. Plausible deniability. How convenient. Not to worry, as it is used all over the universe in aviation. Doesn't fly to well with me.
I will give you this, although I never suggested otherwise:
Believe me, Joe is not capable of the grand conspiracy you give him credit for. He's more of a "spray and pray" type.
Somebody else said it. You guys went all in with a pair of 2s, and got beat, bad. To answer your question, how did that work out for me?--you edited it away in case you forgot.
The answer, it's not about me-although you wouldn't like the answer.
It's about what is right and what is wrong. You were, and still are, wrong. The flying was never yours, still isn't theirs, and likely never will be. It is on indefinite loan, subject to cancellation from the Delta pilots negotiations with Delta, or even Delta terminating it altogether. Connection flying is an EXCEPTION, subject to TERMINATION.
There were better ways to skin the cat, and CMR and ASA blew it.
07-20-2011, 05:42 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl,
According to DPA's lawyer, negotiating seniority is like negotiating a crew meal, no difference. If you don't believe me, go search youtube for a video series titled something like "Can't take the heat, USAPA in the desert." The whole thing is like two hours on 8 or 9 different videos so I am not going to spend the time to find the right link.
So DPA's lawyer has said that it is quite easy to renegotiate a seniority list. It might be difficult for him to announce that for another group that it's impossible to renegotiate a seniority list, that presents a severe conflict of interest there.
You are flat out wrong about the state of US Air's seniority list. There was a transition agreement that stated the process that the two groups would use to create an integrated list. That process was completed and the list was accepted by the company. There is a single seniority list at US Air, it just hasn't been used for anything because they are still in separate ops. Changing that list is no different that changing our list, and DPA's attorney says that seniority is just like a crew meal, so it's easy to change.
I don't know what lounge you hang out in in Detroit, but the one I hang out in has many people talking about how DPA is going to change the seniority list. DPA's attorney says that date of hire is the gold standard in integrating seniority lists, so that might be their target.
The problem with DPA now is that it is all things to all people. Some vote for DPA because they want a new seniority list. I have heard green book guys say that DPA is their ticket to seek revenge on the red book guys. Junior guys think DPA will eliminate RJ's and create hundreds of new mainline jet orders overnight. Middle seniority guys think that DPA will magically deliver a 50% pay raise. Some Delta dead zoners think DPA will deliver a new pension wrapped in a pretty bow. I don't know if the delay in delivering their constitution falls at least in part to somehow reconciling these diverse views of DPA.
One thing is certain, DPA is a chameleon now. Whenever their stated goals or milestones get in the way of reality, they merely change their website and voila, they are still all things to all people. If only it were that easy in the real world.
According to DPA's lawyer, negotiating seniority is like negotiating a crew meal, no difference. If you don't believe me, go search youtube for a video series titled something like "Can't take the heat, USAPA in the desert." The whole thing is like two hours on 8 or 9 different videos so I am not going to spend the time to find the right link.
So DPA's lawyer has said that it is quite easy to renegotiate a seniority list. It might be difficult for him to announce that for another group that it's impossible to renegotiate a seniority list, that presents a severe conflict of interest there.
You are flat out wrong about the state of US Air's seniority list. There was a transition agreement that stated the process that the two groups would use to create an integrated list. That process was completed and the list was accepted by the company. There is a single seniority list at US Air, it just hasn't been used for anything because they are still in separate ops. Changing that list is no different that changing our list, and DPA's attorney says that seniority is just like a crew meal, so it's easy to change.
I don't know what lounge you hang out in in Detroit, but the one I hang out in has many people talking about how DPA is going to change the seniority list. DPA's attorney says that date of hire is the gold standard in integrating seniority lists, so that might be their target.
The problem with DPA now is that it is all things to all people. Some vote for DPA because they want a new seniority list. I have heard green book guys say that DPA is their ticket to seek revenge on the red book guys. Junior guys think DPA will eliminate RJ's and create hundreds of new mainline jet orders overnight. Middle seniority guys think that DPA will magically deliver a 50% pay raise. Some Delta dead zoners think DPA will deliver a new pension wrapped in a pretty bow. I don't know if the delay in delivering their constitution falls at least in part to somehow reconciling these diverse views of DPA.
One thing is certain, DPA is a chameleon now. Whenever their stated goals or milestones get in the way of reality, they merely change their website and voila, they are still all things to all people. If only it were that easy in the real world.
Please keep this up alfa. These blatant lies help us more than you could ever know. After trying to bust their own union and after losing the latest DFR lawsuit to its former members, ALPA is left to do the only thing it can to stop the DPA...lie.
Carl
07-20-2011, 05:44 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: CRJ200 Capt.
Posts: 822
Hey, I didn't bring it up 
We have just broken new ground with where I said it was heading: flow throughs. Industry leading. I will be very interested to see where AA ends up with this. That gets regional guys, the majority of them that want it anyway, where they want to be in the fairest manner to the mainline guys who have already been there and done that. Flow through was suggested during the prep for C2K but was snubbed by both MECs. After all, they wanted to follow their checklist---as they flew their airplane into the ground.
We have just broken new ground with where I said it was heading: flow throughs. Industry leading. I will be very interested to see where AA ends up with this. That gets regional guys, the majority of them that want it anyway, where they want to be in the fairest manner to the mainline guys who have already been there and done that. Flow through was suggested during the prep for C2K but was snubbed by both MECs. After all, they wanted to follow their checklist---as they flew their airplane into the ground.
07-20-2011, 05:44 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
07-20-2011, 05:45 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: CRJ200 Capt.
Posts: 822
Bar, I have ALWAYS agreed with you in principle...However principle doesn't protect my job....Either we are TOGETHER, or we are SEPARATE...as it stands, we are SEPARATE...There is no in between..
07-20-2011, 05:50 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: CRJ200 Capt.
Posts: 822
Yes
It's about what is right and what is wrong. You were, and still are, wrong. The flying was never yours, still isn't theirs, and likely never will be. It is on indefinite loan, subject to cancellation from the Delta pilots negotiations with Delta, or even Delta terminating it altogether. Connection flying is an EXCEPTION, subject to TERMINATION.
It's about what is right and what is wrong. You were, and still are, wrong. The flying was never yours, still isn't theirs, and likely never will be. It is on indefinite loan, subject to cancellation from the Delta pilots negotiations with Delta, or even Delta terminating it altogether. Connection flying is an EXCEPTION, subject to TERMINATION.
07-20-2011, 05:56 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,014
Whatever you say. No offer was thrown out with regard to flow through either. Don't even bother delving into it with a diatribe, because it was. To suggest that CMR and ASA MECs were not acutely aware of the response that was expected from the Delta MEC, did not have their next move planned with members NOT on their MECs from the assured denial of the PID, and not pushing the best deal for their pilots possible (NOT a staple) is disingenuous at best, and an outright lie being more likely. Plausible deniability. How convenient. Not to worry, as it is used all over the universe in aviation. Doesn't fly to well with me.
The answer, it's not about me-although you wouldn't like the answer.
It's about what is right and what is wrong. You were, and still are, wrong. The flying was never yours, still isn't theirs, and likely never will be. It is on indefinite loan, subject to cancellation from the Delta pilots negotiations with Delta, or even Delta terminating it altogether. Connection flying is an EXCEPTION, subject to TERMINATION.
There were better ways to skin the cat, and CMR and ASA blew it.
The answer, it's not about me-although you wouldn't like the answer.
It's about what is right and what is wrong. You were, and still are, wrong. The flying was never yours, still isn't theirs, and likely never will be. It is on indefinite loan, subject to cancellation from the Delta pilots negotiations with Delta, or even Delta terminating it altogether. Connection flying is an EXCEPTION, subject to TERMINATION.
There were better ways to skin the cat, and CMR and ASA blew it.
As for what the CMR, or ASA, MEC's would have opened with IF their PID had been accepted is speculation. I'll concede that I've got no idea what their opener would have looked like. Maybe you are right. But you have to admit, "status quo would have been a staple" (Arnold said that, too).
ASA did have its own code, its own marketing and some routes it had developed independently and some which were developed under their first code share partner, Eastern. IMHO they owned that code and Delta bought it. Today Delta owns that code.
Comair's history is quite a bit different. They were always more of a Delta creation.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 07-20-2011 at 06:15 PM.
07-20-2011, 05:56 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I'm there all the time sparky. Nobody has ever spoken of this in my presence. Ever. Nor in the presence of anyone I know. Why? Because our SLI is unchangeable.
You did hit a nerve...my funny bone. In all your "investigations" I'm surprised you missed the DPA's real goal: To undo the Delta/Northwest corporate merger. Didn't you see that on the website?
Carl
07-20-2011, 05:57 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 396
The fact that you still suggest a "flow through" as a solution to this problem tells me all I need to know....Take your "flow through" and shove it....That isn't a solution...Do you have "flow throughs" to go from the narrowbody aircraft to the widebody aircraft? Why not? "Flow through" is just another way of saying there are two classes of pilots...which is how we got to this mess in the first place...
Besides, I do not support a pure flow through. We already have our 1%, and adding you to the mix would only increase that. Alas, I have no say in it. Just a regular line guy with 1 input.
And when your name is given to me, before I even know it, by guys who are eager to get their buds on with Delta, no I don't believe that they had an
agenda. Even more obviously, you do.
You still think that this has to do with class of pilot, LOL.
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