I think most knuckle draggers agree. :D And most everyone agrees we should go around if not stabilized so we have a policy explicity stating common sense. I'm just saying we should do the same for the former for the other % that tries to save their automation creation.

Think of it as company/industry wide encouragement to do the wise thing.

Nope. You have to bid in the blind -- each and every round.

I was not advocating a unstable approach. We have a published VFR pattern. Many however refuse to fly it and take the aircraft out to beyond the marker. When tower calls you 3 times to remind you that your cleared for the visual that is a hint.

We still get paid by the minute, right?

Maybe they are 'short' for the month!



That was a joke, I do agree with your sentiments SF. But here's the problem. We are told to use all the automation, as much as possible, Vnav to the OM, etc. Flying is (or should be!) a eye-hand type skill, skills we all learned early on, and got to use all the time in the 727/DC9/DC8, what have you.

But to keep that skill, you have to PRACTICE once in a while. Just like a golf swing or racing catamarans, the more you practice, the better you get. But since the Airbus philosophy has taken 'hand flying' out of the realm of normal ops, and with that same mindset creeping into our Boeing training programs (757/767/777) well, in the Sim, they want to see you use the automation, all the time....so...when do you get to practice?

I still go out and fly a little taildragger, just to keep myself sharp, because I don't even get one landing per month on the 777. Thank God I have about a zillion landings in the 757/767 to fall back on, all but a couple Cat 3's in 12 years on it were hand flown, and they are similar enough to the 777 that old 757 habbits work well there. But for someone coming off of nothing but glass and magic, well, what do they have to fall back on when the magic quits, or confuses them?

In BOTH Air France incidents...it sounds like these guys have no idea what to do when the magic quits! I fear we are breeding a similar pilot, eventually, with our "automation all the time" policy. I agree we should be doing a lot more hand flying, on the line and in the sim, and more partial panel work in the sim.

I think, it is possible to not "develop" airmanship at the airline. Instead, we just apply the procedures.

In general, we fly a sid to a visual ILS backup. Its a tragedy to hear that someone might be a little befuddled by a visual pattern.

We do our thing in the sim, but those are generally rote responses to "scenarios."

This isn't the military where a good bit of the flying is pushing the pilot...hard. This job is boring and its our job to keep it that way. If a pilot comes to the airline withour flying skills and airmanship, this is not the place to learn it and the sim is not the tool where it can be taught either, just reviewed.

I understand. What I was imperfecly trying to say is when visuals attack, the trepedation surrounding them and/or the unstabilized approaches comes from the fact they're not practiced and they're not practiced because people worry they'll come in unstable and go-around and look like an incompetent fool and so they don't try which means they're not practiced... catch 22.

And then if tried and they become JAX rwy 25 then the the policy changes or recommendation becomes don't turn inside the OM but then you're never practiced and they end up flying high, wide and long which as you correctly state is an embarassment if not a traffic problem.

Like I said, I have no solution and I don't know if a company would ever change to a policy of encouraging more hand flying even though they should.

I have about 7K hrs of 'bus time and you hit the nail right on the head regarding the Airbus philosophy. Nice office environment though:)

Icrew question. If you opt to view your current monthly schedule and a pop up appears requesting you to acknowledge an assignment what happens if you just log out without acknowledging? Are you considered "notified" for the assignment?

You can just not put your password in and continue on to your schedule and see the pairing. You won't be considered notified. But they do know you looked at your schedule. I had a call from a scheduler once saying they saw I looked at my schedule and could I please acknowledge.

No. You have to type in your password to acknowledge any assignments. They can see that you viewed your schedule though