Originally Posted by Meow1215

Fair point -

To the 9E pilots, this is not signed yet. There is no TA, and it is far from the coming MEMRAT. Keep the champagne on ice, and your PFA lanyard around your neck. Don’t forget to call your reps.

To the DALPA pilots, we didn’t tie this to your bottom end scope and I don’t know a single 9E pilot that wants to see 35 more RJs flying in the DCI network. Delta did, don’t pin these 35 RJs on us. It’s on Delta, 9EALPA played the cards we were dealt and we expect nothing less from DALPA.

Originally Posted by Casualinterest

I don't NEED anything. And if you read my posts you'll see I'm not 100% sure this thing is gonna happen. And I totally get dalpa's argument. It's not my fault delta tied our existing career progression negotiations to this compass crap. But it was clearly the deal they put on the table. What should the mec here have done? Say no thank you? You're gonna tell me that if the roles were reversed you would say thanks but no thanks? They would've just walked down the street to oo or rah. If you had read our mec's letter it was very respectful of the position dalpa takes on this and takes no sides other than to say it's not a done deal. I know very well about all the existing scope grievances, the SIL nonsense, and the training debacles. What I'm talking about had nothing to do with any of that, and was plain and simple about the deal our guys got handed.


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Originally Posted by JonGoodsell764

I seem to recall a certain orange lanyard that very much made it known what the edv union wanted. Even during the global pandemic while other pilots were on the street. And I seem to remember them changing gears to say the orange lanyard represented ALL pilots. Lol, okay...I don’t think the junior pilots at endeavor realize how much they’re going to get shafted. Waiting to flow behind someone who’s already interviewed at Delta multiple times and been told no multiple times wouldn’t sit well with me. Not to mention some of the goofballs that are over there who would also flow before them who are very well known the both edv and DAL.

Originally Posted by Bornflying

Agreed. First and foremost, ****on 9E's side this has nothing to do with the 35 RJ'********. I'm pretty sure there will be no wording in regards to the 35 RJ's in the agreement. In regards to the flow up and down, Delta can argue they can hire whomever they want into Delta or Endeavor. I don't see how an arbitrator could void the agreement of a flow up/down- DALPA doesn't have a say in who gets hired into Delta or Endeavor. A furloughed Delta pilot obviously wouldn't *have* to flow down to Endeavor.

There is a provision that says that if Compass flow rights ceases to exist, Delta, DALPA, Compass have to meet to discuss "whether continuation or modification of [the] LOA would be appropriate". I think Delta will just say no continuation or modification is needed. Taking this literally, they can satisfy this just by having a meeting and doing nothing.

You hit the nail on the head with regards to thinking like a lawyer. If you google "arbitration guide contract interpretation", there are some great guides that show some insight how arbitration works in regards to contract interpretation.

Essentially, what I get from reading the arbitration guides is the first thing that needs to be established is if a provision is ambiguous or not. If it is *not* ambiguous- the provision is to be interpreted literally. If it *is* ambiguous (in the context of the entire contract/situation), that's where intent (arbitrator's notes, etc) comes into play and the intent of the provision becomes the controlling factor.

So again, I don't think the flow up/down has any bearing on the legal battle ahead - ***it is 100% about the 35 RJ'******* and the clause you referenced: "In the event the hiring or flow provisions of NWA LOA 2006-10 or LOA #9 cease to be available, either at the feeder carrier affiliate referenced in such LOAs or at another carrier, the number of permitted 76-seat aircraft in Section 1 B. 47. e. will be reduced by 35."

The first issue will be "is it ambiguous in the context of the contract/situation?" That's the question I don't know the answer to - I'm not a lawyer so I really don't know case studies that might give a clue. Delta will argue it is ambiguous in the context of the situation (covid, etc)- a type of ambiguity called "latent ambiguity". "Latent ambiguity exists when the language used is clear and intelligible so that it suggests one meaning but some extrinsic evidence creates a need for interpretation ".

If Delta can convince an arbitrator latent ambiguity exists, then the intent of the provision takes precedence (does "cease" to be available apply when there are no pilot furloughs? Is "cease" ambiguous in this context?). I think the intent was pretty clear- 35 RJ's in exchange for a flow-down. In that case, I think Delta would win. I would find it very hard to believe that Delta didn't have a team of lawyers in a big meeting about this before giving Endeavor the go-ahead to offer a flow to the MEC. Either Delta thinks they will win this, or it will be worth the consequences if they lose.

If DALPA can convince an arbitrator no reason for interpretation exists, that the situation does not warrant latent ambiguity, then the provision should be taken literally. In that case, I think DALPA wins (because the provision did cease to exist taken at face value) and the 35 RJ's go away and some repercussions (what that would be I don't know). What would this mean for the Endeavor flow up/down? I don't know, since I don't think the 35 RJs would be anywhere in 9E's agreement I don't know how that would relate. Since the flow down isn't mandatory, I don't see how that would relate either. Worst case, if an arbitrator voided the flow for reasons I can't understand- would Delta just say no to any contractual progression to 9E? That would be pretty bad.

To beat a dead horse, the 35 RJ's needs to be divorced from the flow- they are separate. Yes, Delta is doing this for the 35 RJ's, but the flow agreement is completely independent of the 35 RJ's. Delta will fly those planes because they think the flow satisfies the contract, but what Delta does with those aircraft has nothing to do with 9E or the flow agreement- what Delta chooses to do with the 35 RJ's is between Delta and DALPA, not Endeavor or the flow agreement.

Originally Posted by WakeWash

Don’t post often but as a Delta guy, former regional, I want to explain our problem so this isn’t a 9E vs Delta pilots issue:

Delta pilots don’t have an issue with the flow, and we also would love to see career progression for 9E guys. Our issue is solely against management and how they are handling this.

most of you know the SIL debacle, downgrades and UNAs mistake, etc etc. When compass shutdown and furloughs looked likely, we said we need a flow back to replace Compass for them to continue to operate the 35 RJs. They refused to try to reach an agreement. Mind you, this is when furloughs were to occur, and most of us received THREE furlough letters. Now that furlough is way past us, the company wants to talk and give us a flow back?!?! They want their 35 RJs flying. They are circumventing the union and scope to try to get what they want, when they want it. This isn’t about either pilot group, but completely about scope and them doing whatever they want to violate scope. (For those than don’t know, Delta was still flying these RJs when they knew they weren’t suppose to be)

I understand that this is a huge win for 9E, but if you TRULY want to be at Delta you need to look at the bigger picture here. This kind of behavior and approach is unacceptable. If it’s stopped now, your career while here will undoubtedly be better for it. If this is allowed, it will only continue to get worse as they see they can get away with more and more.

It’s very unfortunate how pilot groups are trying to be played against each other, but everyone needs to understand where the anger is being placed, and it IS NOT against 9E pilots. Again, I wish for each of you to be here as soon as today.

Originally Posted by Bornflying

I'm glad to hear that from a Delta pilot. I feel like that is the general sentiment among most Delta pilots. And I agree with everything you are saying.

Regarding ["want to be at Delta you need to look at the bigger picture here'],.. While this is true, there is really nothing that Endeavor pilots or Endeavor MEC can reasonably do about it. It would be lunacy to turn down an offer of a flow, our MEC has been working on contractual progression (we have none of any sort- DGI is not in our contract either) for years and has been their #1 priority. If we turned it down, it would be a sure way to make Delta management mad - I would say near impossible to get anything in the way of contractual progression down the line.

This really isn't a 9E issue- this is a Delta / Delta MEC issue regarding scope on the 35 RJ's. The flow is a separate issue, if Delta flies those 35 RJ's that isn't the fault of Endeavor pilots or their MEC- that is Delta alone.