Not in the contract, FM1 is where it is writ.

 

How naive can you get? Every year they keep you at Envoy is one year less they will be paying you at the top rate you would otherwise retire at at AA.

THE MONEY ALL COMES FROM THE SAME PLACE.

Every year they can drag the flow out saves them the difference between Envoy top captain pay and AA top captain pay.

Call it $190K per pilot per year.

 

Truth. If they wanted us to move as fast as possible, they would beating down our door demanding we agree to increase in flow.

 

Lol. You really don’t know do you? Cujo knows Envoy better than you or dera. Although I don’t agree with everything he says he could fly circles around you both with his experience at Envoy.

 

I think there was more than a little sarcastic, tongue in cheek mockery of dera’s Envoy experience in BigZ’s post.

 

I was being sarcastic.

 

So they rather pay a street hire the money?Either way they aren’t getting out of paying guys/gals to fly for AA. None of this is personal from AA. I do believe it could become personal from Envoy if flow threatens the integrity of the regional operation.

 

Dera gets upset because I tell people that the little company I worked at for a year or so treats their pilots better than most regionals, including Envoy. Tell me another regional that positive spaces their pilots to/from work and the pilot keeps the air miles. Tell me another regional that provides hotels every night of the trip, even in base, and the pilot keeps all hotel points. Other than that, they are as screwed up as the next regional; better in some ways, worse in others.

You can't go only by what you read on these type of boards as they are all almost always negative towards their employer. You have to temper all the negative posts, with the few positive ones.

Example, Envoy... as abusive as management can be at times, and as lousy at it is for commuters; it is a very stable company, with good infrastructure, good training programs, good instructors, good equipment, good MX programs, and a great employee group. It also provides a flow program which was unlike any other. It was copied somewhat and given to PDT/PSA.... but it originated with Eagle.

The terms of the flow have deteriorated over time, getting fewer benefits and fewer monthly flows as time has progressed. Originally, flow thru pilots had numbers on the APA pilot seniority list.... in essence reserving their spot there while still here. Then was the 824 crowd from an arbitration over them violating the flow agreement... the arbitrator awarded 824 more slots. That was to be the end of the flow through program, but you guessed it... a bunch of more contract grievances, and well... those grievances were settled by creating a new flow thru program. It said 50% of every new hire each year had to come from Eagle/Envoy. Later during the bankruptcy the company used flow as a negotiation tool, and along came the flow for everybody hired after 10-2011. Due to more flow contract violations, they settled a grievance by increasing the withholding from 25 to 29 per month (not per class... as AA often runs more than one class a month) under the old rules it should have been 50% of all new hires.... but that's a story for another time in and of itself.

Anyway, the point is the flow has been gradually been reduced in quality, and in quantity. Originally guys had numbers, took all their sick, vacation and ICE benefits with them. Then it was just taking ICE benefits, then it was just an inter-company transfer with no benefits, and now it's just flow with no transfer of benefits. It went from 50% to just 29 a month, and later it will drop again.

Meanwhile, the number of retirements industrywide at legacy, LCC, some ACMI and other career destinations are kicking into full gear. 2019 is the first year where legacy retirements alone will exceed 3,000. So, while the flow is slowing, the hiring is actually picking up. The latest union estimates put flow time at around 8 years from date of hire for a new hire. In this market, if they haven't been hired someplace else before then, then they haven't been applying anywhere or trying very hard. The flow used to be great, but now is rapidly becoming less valuable than a life insurance policy to a teenager.

Take a LOSA job, and instructor gig, a check airman slot to spice up your resume. Do volunteer work at ALPA National on Safety or Education committees... stay out of the contracts, negotiations, representatives or anything else that could tick off your Envoy managers. Take the volunteer jobs that look good on a resume and allow you to network with your mainline counterparts.... those are the volunteer jobs at ALPA worth doing. Then attend the job fairs and get yourself face time with your target airlines. Those who stand out will be the ones hired first, and seniority is everything.

Good luck to all; it's a great time to be a pilot.

 

Long but worth the read, thanks for the perspective Cujo. It’s tough to piece the history together from snippets of conversations with sr captains, and posts like that are really illuminating.

 

We must have went to different Envoy's because the training program was garbage. Clueless PSI's.. I can't even begin to explain.