Originally Posted by Cujo665

You can't go only by what you read on these type of boards as they are all almost always negative towards their employer. You have to temper all the negative posts, with the few positive ones.

Example, Envoy... as abusive as management can be at times, and as lousy at it is for commuters; it is a very stable company, with good infrastructure, good training programs, good instructors, good equipment, good MX programs, and a great employee group. It also provides a flow program which was unlike any other. It was copied somewhat and given to PDT/PSA.... but it originated with Eagle.

The terms of the flow have deteriorated over time, getting fewer benefits and fewer monthly flows as time has progressed. Originally, flow thru pilots had numbers on the APA pilot seniority list.... in essence reserving their spot there while still here. Then was the 824 crowd from an arbitration over them violating the flow agreement... the arbitrator awarded 824 more slots. That was to be the end of the flow through program, but you guessed it... a bunch of more contract grievances, and well... those grievances were settled by creating a new flow thru program. It said 50% of every new hire each year had to come from Eagle/Envoy. Later during the bankruptcy the company used flow as a negotiation tool, and along came the flow for everybody hired after 10-2011. Due to more flow contract violations, they settled a grievance by increasing the withholding from 25 to 29 per month (not per class... as AA often runs more than one class a month) under the old rules it should have been 50% of all new hires.... but that's a story for another time in and of itself.

Anyway, the point is the flow has been gradually been reduced in quality, and in quantity. Originally guys had numbers, took all their sick, vacation and ICE benefits with them. Then it was just taking ICE benefits, then it was just an inter-company transfer with no benefits, and now it's just flow with no transfer of benefits. It went from 50% to just 29 a month, and later it will drop again.

Meanwhile, the number of retirements industrywide at legacy, LCC, some ACMI and other career destinations are kicking into full gear. 2019 is the first year where legacy retirements alone will exceed 3,000. So, while the flow is slowing, the hiring is actually picking up. The latest union estimates put flow time at around 8 years from date of hire for a new hire. In this market, if they haven't been hired someplace else before then, then they haven't been applying anywhere or trying very hard. The flow used to be great, but now is rapidly becoming less valuable than a life insurance policy to a teenager.

Take a LOSA job, and instructor gig, a check airman slot to spice up your resume. Do volunteer work at ALPA National on Safety or Education committees... stay out of the contracts, negotiations, representatives or anything else that could tick off your Envoy managers. Take the volunteer jobs that look good on a resume and allow you to network with your mainline counterparts.... those are the volunteer jobs at ALPA worth doing. Then attend the job fairs and get yourself face time with your target airlines. Those who stand out will be the ones hired first, and seniority is everything.

Good luck to all; it's a great time to be a pilot.

Originally Posted by Varsity

We must have went to different Envoy's because the training program was garbage. Clueless PSI's.. I can't even begin to explain.

Originally Posted by dera

*****ing about Envoy contract should be left to Envoy pilots if they so wish to do.

Originally Posted by Cujo665

Feel free to *****...

In December 2014 Moak (the ALPA National president at the time) rode into town on his white horse to attend an Envoy MEC meeting in person. He made them turn off all cellphones, ipads, laptops and even disconnected reps who were on teleconference so his speech could not be recorded. He then told the MEC that he had been in contact the Parker and that after 1 & 3/4 years of getting nowhere with a CBA for Envoy he had finally decided to go ahead and Comair Envoy and transfer the flying to PSA & PDT over time. Moak claimed to have used his influence to get one last chance to save Envoy pilots from permanent furlough. That prompted him to attend the MEC meeting in December 2014.

After 1.75 years of contract fighting, in December 2014 I did vote to send the TA to the pilots for a vote.
In fact, the vote to send it to the pilots failed the first time. It was a split vote and I was the deciding No vote.

They had a section in the prelude of whereas statements that said that Envoy ALPA thanks ALPA National for all their help and assistance in obtaining this agreement.

Since my opinion was that ALPA did NOT help us obtain a fair contract, and instead we had more help from the APA fighting Envoy I refused to vote to approve the TA with that in there. The TA failed.

I made a motion to reconsider with a modification. I forced them to remove any and all reference to ALPA national being helpful in obtaining that TA. We then voted again, and it passed by one vote; mine. To this day it is one of the very very few CBA's without a reference to ALPA National.

I think that might qualify me to comment on the contract Dera……

Originally Posted by Varsity

We must have went to different Envoy's because the training program was garbage. Clueless PSI's.. I can't even begin to explain.

Originally Posted by Cujo665

The new (past few years) PSI program is a change that I think was not for the better. However, if you factor in that all the other training centers are also having issues then Envoy still stands out as better than average. Heck, Flight Safety takes guys who have never been in the real plane; types them, and then has them teaching others. Most of the younger good instructors have been scooped up by mainline carriers. As hard as it is to get good pilots; it's almost harder to get good instructors.

Originally Posted by dera

This is all good info, and hard to find too. Thanks for posting it.
Again, I did apologize on the previous page. This subforum just happens to be a bit of a toilet bowl of APC. People post negative crap all the time, even when it's without any factual base "we have the worst reserve rules (no we don't)", "175 FO reserve is over a year! (no it isn't)" and so on, and if you try to inject any positive comments, people start hating on you. It gets old pretty quick.
Your post just happened to be the last one on that page, and my trigger finger was a bit too quick.

Originally Posted by Cujo665

Well, the reserve rules were written back in 2000. Amended in 2004, 2008 & 2012. When FTDT changed in 2013 there were no amendments either. So, realistically the reserve rules as written do not even directly corelate to the rules as they are now. They are the worst because there are so many sections, letters of agreement, side letters, grievance settlements, arbitration awards and who knows what else that you can't even really figure out which section trumps which section since you can find conflicting data if you dig hard enough. The company is in no hurry to make any changes at all because the ambiguity works well for them. The CBA means what they say it means at the time, because they can pick which section to use. Then when you point to a different sections they say, oh yeah... well we don't see it that way, feel free to file a grievance, but in the meantime fly it then grieve it.

Not sure when ALPA lost their balls, but I remember when I was hired that if it wasn't in the contract then it wasn't binding. If it wasn't binding I wasn't obligated. If I wasn't obligated, then I wasn't doing it.... and we went home. When they tried their management rights stuff that since it wasn't covered by CBA they could do as they pleased, we'd cite some DOL law under the RLA that any change to the working conditions, work rules, or compensation was required to be negotiated... and until then, we weren't obligated. Then sometime around 2009 it became the current fly it a grieve it crap.

Honestly, I almost got National to go to bat to argue that the RLA shouldn't apply to regionals since we were not a real airline. We were only a staffing company.
We owned no planes.
We owned no gates.
We owned no routes.
We sold no tickets.
We leased no concourses.
ALPA actually was considering flighting that we should have been under the NLRB and NFSLA and not the RLA.... and then one thing stopped them dead in their tracks. A small piece of paper that said "Air Carrier Certificate."

I argued at the National BOD meeting in 2014 that the PAC should be tasked with updating the RLA commensurate with modern business practices. In other words, when the RLA was written you couldn't go to a TWA pilot and say give us these concessions or we are giving your flying to PanAm. The RLA wasn't written with the outsourced business model in mind. The very fact of outsourcing the flying is contrary to the status quo requirement during section six negotiations.... yet it happens all the time because the RLA doesn't consider contract flying CPA's.
When I made that motion; the place went into pandemonium. A parade of lawyers entered the committee room and explained for three hours why they didn't want to touch the RLA. IN the end they scared enough reps, that nothing got done.

I did manage to get defending the 1500 hour rule added as an agenda item and ratified by the whole Board of Directors. I smile every time I see an ALPA advertisement or video defending the FTDT/1500 hour rules. That was my doing. The Delta, United & Fedex reps helped me organize it, word it and push it through. The Delta guys more than others. If there is one thing I did good for this industry, that was it.

Originally Posted by boiler07

Thank God you were there to ride in on your white horse and save everyone.

Originally Posted by BigZ

I was being sarcastic.