Originally Posted by Pedro4President

So I guess three beers in is where I lose my sense of sarcasm. My fault.

Originally Posted by Pedro4President

So I guess three beers in is where I lose my sense of sarcasm. My fault.

Originally Posted by Cujo665

Dera gets upset because I tell people that the little company I worked at for a year or so treats their pilots better than most regionals, including Envoy. Tell me another regional that positive spaces their pilots to/from work and the pilot keeps the air miles. Tell me another regional that provides hotels every night of the trip, even in base, and the pilot keeps all hotel points. Other than that, they are as screwed up as the next regional; better in some ways, worse in others.

You can't go only by what you read on these type of boards as they are all almost always negative towards their employer. You have to temper all the negative posts, with the few positive ones.

Example, Envoy... as abusive as management can be at times, and as lousy at it is for commuters; it is a very stable company, with good infrastructure, good training programs, good instructors, good equipment, good MX programs, and a great employee group. It also provides a flow program which was unlike any other. It was copied somewhat and given to PDT/PSA.... but it originated with Eagle.

The terms of the flow have deteriorated over time, getting fewer benefits and fewer monthly flows as time has progressed. Originally, flow thru pilots had numbers on the APA pilot seniority list.... in essence reserving their spot there while still here. Then was the 824 crowd from an arbitration over them violating the flow agreement... the arbitrator awarded 824 more slots. That was to be the end of the flow through program, but you guessed it... a bunch of more contract grievances, and well... those grievances were settled by creating a new flow thru program. It said 50% of every new hire each year had to come from Eagle/Envoy. Later during the bankruptcy the company used flow as a negotiation tool, and along came the flow for everybody hired after 10-2011. Due to more flow contract violations, they settled a grievance by increasing the withholding from 25 to 29 per month (not per class... as AA often runs more than one class a month) under the old rules it should have been 50% of all new hires.... but that's a story for another time in and of itself.

Anyway, the point is the flow has been gradually been reduced in quality, and in quantity. Originally guys had numbers, took all their sick, vacation and ICE benefits with them. Then it was just taking ICE benefits, then it was just an inter-company transfer with no benefits, and now it's just flow with no transfer of benefits. It went from 50% to just 29 a month, and later it will drop again.

Meanwhile, the number of retirements industrywide at legacy, LCC, some ACMI and other career destinations are kicking into full gear. 2019 is the first year where legacy retirements alone will exceed 3,000. So, while the flow is slowing, the hiring is actually picking up. The latest union estimates put flow time at around 8 years from date of hire for a new hire. In this market, if they haven't been hired someplace else before then, then they haven't been applying anywhere or trying very hard. The flow used to be great, but now is rapidly becoming less valuable than a life insurance policy to a teenager.

Take a LOSA job, and instructor gig, a check airman slot to spice up your resume. Do volunteer work at ALPA National on Safety or Education committees... stay out of the contracts, negotiations, representatives or anything else that could tick off your Envoy managers. Take the volunteer jobs that look good on a resume and allow you to network with your mainline counterparts.... those are the volunteer jobs at ALPA worth doing. Then attend the job fairs and get yourself face time with your target airlines. Those who stand out will be the ones hired first, and seniority is everything.

Good luck to all; it's a great time to be a pilot.

Originally Posted by Pedro4President

So I guess three beers in is where I lose my sense of sarcasm. My fault.

Originally Posted by inky13

... so what happens at 4?

Originally Posted by Cujo665

LOL, that was Moak…. To this day, I don't know if he lied or if it was true. I used the "ride in on his white horse" comment because I was told (heard rumor) that he did something similar at Pinnacle/Endeavor.... came in at the last minute in person to push through a TA at a regional MEC.... and that's how they described him; as having come in on his white horse the save them from themselves....

I've never been the hero type. Sometimes lucky, sometimes not so much. Just always tried hard at everything.

Originally Posted by rondonq1

I like it better when you a cheerleader for company. Now you just hate company and cheer on yourself. You right about one thing. The flow not going to keep working. I hear guys on here are new hires and say they flow in 6 or 8 years. Exactly what company wants. They want you to use lowest flow number which is 8 and put it with lower number. Flow now 8 to 10 years. Not 6 to 8. Really flow will be gone then. Not enough pilot to fly envoy Rj.

Originally Posted by mketch11

What?




.

Originally Posted by rondonq1

I like it better when you a cheerleader for company. Now you just hate company and cheer on yourself. You right about one thing. The flow not going to keep working. I hear guys on here are new hires and say they flow in 6 or 8 years. Exactly what company wants. They want you to use lowest flow number which is 8 and put it with lower number. Flow now 8 to 10 years. Not 6 to 8. Really flow will be gone then. Not enough pilot to fly envoy Rj.

Originally Posted by Cujo665

On the contrary; I don’t hate the company at all. I do dislike the manner in which some executive level managers operate though. The place promotes those who “get more” from those employees under their charge without concern over how they do it. This encourages and rewards abusive treatment.

It’s still a good company. Other regionals are paying better and starting to treat their pilots better, so eventually Envoy will come around.

I still recommend Envoy to new aspiring pilots and have quietly helped several get jobs there. In this environment, I do not recommend any FFD regional that isn’t wholly owned. We saw during the bankruptcy that pilots would voluntarily recycle themselves to a new carrier if it brought a quicker upgrade. That same principle will be used when the shortage worsens. The wholly owned will pull the flying back in house. It will cause downgrades at the vendors, possibly even furloughs if done quickly enough. At the same time the WO’s will continue upgrading. Those pilots will recycle themselves just to have a job. AAG won’t be buying regionals, they’ll just steal the pilots by taking the flying back. When push comes to shove and the shortage worsens, being at an outside contractor won’t be the place to be.

After that, the hiring will be so fast-n-furious that even the WO’s will shrink as mainlines take the flying back. Before that happens expect the three AA WO’s to be merged into a new single airline.... probably called.... American Eagle Airlines.