Envoy Information
05-29-2015 | 07:30 AM
#501
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
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*see my previous two points about why Envoy can make these claims regarding the past flow numbers. The foundation is THEY HAD TO FLOW THESE PILOTS. Once the legal 824 are gone, different dynamics take over and the "6-year" projection (look up that term) is simply that.
A projection based on hypothetical that have YET to be anchored with commitments. UNLESS and UNTIL AAG (NOT Envoy) makes the necessary commitments, that's ALL that will ever be offered;
Projections.
05-29-2015 | 07:33 AM
#502
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 391
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I think non-Envoy pilots would be smart not to bite at this latest carrot just yet (and if any airline has a history of cultivating enticing carrots to pilots over the last 19 years, it's this one). Again, so far ALL that has occurred regarding the future is PROMISES. Here's some facts;
Envoy has flowed X pilots to AA for the combination of two reasons. First, AA has been hiring (more modestly as of late though) and second, Envoy has been legally REQUIRED to flow the number of pilots it has over the last two years or so as part of the 824 grievance award. If AA is hiring (they are), Envoy management has NO choice to move these pilots to AA. HOWEVER..........once those 824 have flowed (500 or so to go), it becomes more of a contractual flow (the "protected pilots") and then the requirements can be altered or possibly even voided at some point in the future due to any number of scenarios including, but not limited to merger or even liquidation of Envoy.
Soon, it seems obvious that flow-throughs will be standard in the industry as all three legacies will have no choice but to adopt them for competitive reasons to protect their mainline feed.
Envoy has flowed X pilots to AA for the combination of two reasons. First, AA has been hiring (more modestly as of late though) and second, Envoy has been legally REQUIRED to flow the number of pilots it has over the last two years or so as part of the 824 grievance award. If AA is hiring (they are), Envoy management has NO choice to move these pilots to AA. HOWEVER..........once those 824 have flowed (500 or so to go), it becomes more of a contractual flow (the "protected pilots") and then the requirements can be altered or possibly even voided at some point in the future due to any number of scenarios including, but not limited to merger or even liquidation of Envoy.
Soon, it seems obvious that flow-throughs will be standard in the industry as all three legacies will have no choice but to adopt them for competitive reasons to protect their mainline feed.
05-29-2015 | 07:33 AM
#503
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
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They don't publish their fleet plan. You have to figure it our based on transfer schedules, SEC filings and other data. The reason for that is obvious. The CRJ transfer schedule on the PSA website is already the second transfer schedule, and now it's changed again such that Envoy needs to begin upgrading FO's to Captain. The upgrades are flow driven, not growth driven, and will continue long after other places stagnate, especially non-wholly owneds that don't have the flow to add to regular CA attrition.
What do you mean, you see no Commitment?
The commitment is 50% of every AA new hire class; and as you've seen we're doing well above that the past few years. Hate them all you like; their plan is working exactly as they said it would.
It's a good time to be an Envoy pilot
What do you mean, you see no Commitment?
The commitment is 50% of every AA new hire class; and as you've seen we're doing well above that the past few years. Hate them all you like; their plan is working exactly as they said it would.
It's a good time to be an Envoy pilot
So if the used car lot down the street has offered their cars at 10% discounts for the last 6 months, that means they will for the next 6 months ?
[laughter]
No........it's a good time to be an Envoy SALESMAN !
05-29-2015 | 07:36 AM
#504
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 3,578
Likes: 48
From: Semi-Retired...
I think non-Envoy pilots would be smart not to bite at this latest carrot just yet (and if any airline has a history of cultivating enticing carrots to pilots over the last 19 years, it's this one). Again, so far ALL that has occurred regarding the future is PROMISES. Here's some facts;
Having flowed 62% instead of only the requires 50% isn't them keeping their promise to flow more when able? How are they not keeping their promise?
Envoy has flowed X pilots to AA for the combination of two reasons. First, AA has been hiring (more modestly as of late though) and second, Envoy has been legally REQUIRED to flow the number of pilots it has over the last two years or so as part of the 824 grievance award. If AA is hiring (they are), Envoy management has NO choice to move these pilots to AA. HOWEVER..........once those 824 have flowed (500 or so to go), it becomes more of a contractual flow (the "protected pilots") and then the requirements can be altered or possibly even voided at some point in the future due to any number of scenarios including, but not limited to merger or even liquidation of Envoy.
Soon, it seems obvious that flow-throughs will be standard in the industry as all three legacies will have no choice but to adopt them for competitive reasons to protect their mainline feed.
Soon, it seems obvious that flow-throughs will be standard in the industry as all three legacies will have no choice but to adopt them for competitive reasons to protect their mainline feed.
Which is it big mouth? They're going to void the flow, or are the flows going to become standard?
You can't have it both ways.
It's working exactly as they said it would, better in fact... 12% above required. Guys hired today are looking at a less than 6 year flow to AA.
Just basic math.
05-29-2015 | 07:39 AM
#507
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
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This subject requires differing points-of-view so anyone considering such a move to Envoy can consider all angles. As for going to AA, I think future legacy pilots should also do as much research in what each of the 3 legacies offers their pilots contractually and the culture of how they see their pilots to best determine their goal carrier.
05-29-2015 | 07:39 AM
#508
Banned
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,137
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What would you like to hear, kiddo?
That Envoy has been over 60% of all new hires at AA for the past 2 years? Or how a new hire at Envoy today will upgrade in less than 2.5 years and flow to American within 6? With no interview, unlike PSA where it takes 20 years just to interview.
We have been saying these things not for PSA trolls like you but for new hires trying to decide where to go. But that's fine. Anybody who goes to PSA or anywhere else today will be making a lateral move to Envoy in about 6 months to a year when the PROOF of all we have been saying begins to materialize.
If new hires don't want to listen that's fine..they will waste their time and potential seniority here at Envoy because they were lured to PSA with false promises of PIC time..as if PIC is what is needed to get to mainline these days. FYI: it's not
That Envoy has been over 60% of all new hires at AA for the past 2 years? Or how a new hire at Envoy today will upgrade in less than 2.5 years and flow to American within 6? With no interview, unlike PSA where it takes 20 years just to interview.
We have been saying these things not for PSA trolls like you but for new hires trying to decide where to go. But that's fine. Anybody who goes to PSA or anywhere else today will be making a lateral move to Envoy in about 6 months to a year when the PROOF of all we have been saying begins to materialize.
If new hires don't want to listen that's fine..they will waste their time and potential seniority here at Envoy because they were lured to PSA with false promises of PIC time..as if PIC is what is needed to get to mainline these days. FYI: it's not
Good Luck (and God Bless)!
05-29-2015 | 07:41 AM
#509
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
05-29-2015 | 07:44 AM
#510
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,648
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