Bzzt

Average age of a new hire at Delta and United is 37 (ALPA FFD website).

sublime259

So what is your solution then, go to a regional with a potential quick upgrade rather then a place with a flow? By your own estimation, for the flow to not succeed then hiring at mainline would have to slow or stop. If that were the case, then where is one to go with that precious 121 PIC time?

sublime259

And they've hired quite a few more then AA has in the past couple of years. AA has been trickle hiring, just look at the American Poolie thread.

There's nothing wrong at all with United or Delta and any one of us would be fortunate to go there. However, in the long run, I'd prefer to be at AA. Seniority is everything.

Bzzt

I think what he has said is that if Envoy doesn't get the required amount of new hires then they'll meter the flow or stop it all together. Despite what Cujo/Mason32 want you to believe they can and will do that if they can't maintain the lift necessary at Envoy. ENY ALPA will grieve it and 8 years from that point an arbitrator will likely side with ALPA and arbitrate that some number (let's say 824) pilots get to flow to AA provided AA is hiring at 50% of each class which can be metered to 20.

sublime259

From what I understand, if that were to happen it's not simply a contract violation. For the "824" they would be violating a court order (don't think anyone wants to go down that road) and for the Protected Pilots it was an arbitrated agreement. After that, it is part of our CBA in which case they could go ahead and say "grieve it."

BTW, your quick briefing of how the 824 came about is inaccurate. You failed to leave out the few hundred CA's with numbers who kept their Captain pay during the worst decade this industry has seen (likely would have been furloughed) and then were able to flow over at 4 year pay.

eaglefly

My solution ?

For whom?

Personally, I wouldn't leave another regional to come to Envoy SOLELY on the projections in one Flight Dept. manager's letter. If I was an entry-level pilot, I wouldn't come to Envoy SOLELY on that basis either. I'd look at where I would be based, the airline's stability, how it treats its employees, the advancement potential based on past behavior, things like that.

Flow-throughs are likely to be an industry standard concept in the future, that is if each of the 3 legacies plan on having viable regional feeders. That means even though Envoy is blowing their horn on this aspect, they likely will have much company in the future. 6 years is a life-time in this industry and considering the future morphing of the regionals which is a virtual certainty, a blue carrier today can easily be red in a few years and vice versa.

This 'sniff' test should alert ANY pilot that when the smell of desperation is in the air accompanied by ambiguous promises, there is a STRONG likelihood someone is trying to sell you a bill of goods............or the Brooklyn Bridge for the interests of themselves or others and not necessarily for you.

Caveat Emptor.

eaglefly

Seniority is far too fickle a ***** to pin down. Just like regionals where some pilots are running around chasing it only to find out how quickly it can change or disappear from what they assumed, both present and projected future seniority is a guess.

eaglefly

It's interesting you argue the concept of an arbitration award validating the transfer rights of the "824" (not a "court order") and then forget to mention it was this very same mechanism that resulted in many flows flowing at 3rd or 4th year pay. That too was as a result of an arbitration award (in fact, the same award) due to Nicolaus determination that these pilots were unfairly held back from flowing when they should have. As a result, these pilots DID get pay and B-fund credit, but no vestation in their A-funds, which was a significant blow.

sublime259

I wouldn't look too much into the "desperation" as you call it. As much as I hate DUI Doug and Co. when they say they're going to do something, they do it.

You're right in terms of choosing a regional and I would never recommend everyone to come to envoy or jump-ship in a lateral move. But it's not a bad place. If I could roll back the clock 8 years and go to republic, PSA, PDT, skywest, TSA, GoJet, AWAC, or any other I don't think I would change a thing. Upgrading quickly isn't everything, but maybe that's just me.

sublime259

Yup, AMR f'd them for sure with the A-Fund. Notice how I said AMR, not AAG. Listen man, it's not called a lost-decade for nothing. People got hosed big time, nobody is arguing that. However, I would hardly say that the past-precident of a defunct management should be the reason why someone does not put value in our flow. Is it perfect? No way. But it's what we have, it's not too bad, and it's working as advertised.