New Envoy Information
02-17-2016 | 08:39 AM
#1202
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
I am in complete agreement. When I stated this several months back, I was flamed and told that I didn't know anything. Several on here were more concerned with my identity than the message I was putting out. They believed I was just spreading flamebait.
Well, it looks like what I saw the company doing has actually happened and the hard core kool aid guzzlers haven't said much here lately.
I'm sorry for the Envoy guys. I was just trying to say what I believed was going to happen when I was posting this previously. Fortunately, I've been able to move on. In my last days at ENY now.
Well, it looks like what I saw the company doing has actually happened and the hard core kool aid guzzlers haven't said much here lately.
I'm sorry for the Envoy guys. I was just trying to say what I believed was going to happen when I was posting this previously. Fortunately, I've been able to move on. In my last days at ENY now.
02-17-2016 | 08:49 AM
#1203
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
The guy is trolling. Why don't you just sit back, relax and wait patiently? AAG knows what they are doing. As proven with USAir, they do what they say they are going to do.
The math and numbers that RW has put out have been run over and over by people way more competent that I, and trust me, they are good. Charlie Bucket will not be more than a month or two behind if that. I would still expect a 2.5 year upgrade for those hired today and a flow in 6 years or less. With the math that's been run and put out to ALPA and the pilot group, it's more or less a fact.
Add in the best work rules in the regional industry, it should make your time here go by in a breeze.
The math and numbers that RW has put out have been run over and over by people way more competent that I, and trust me, they are good. Charlie Bucket will not be more than a month or two behind if that. I would still expect a 2.5 year upgrade for those hired today and a flow in 6 years or less. With the math that's been run and put out to ALPA and the pilot group, it's more or less a fact.
Add in the best work rules in the regional industry, it should make your time here go by in a breeze.
Fact Checker
In order to meet Captain Wilson’s 2.5 year upgrade plan a new hire pilot’s relative seniority needs to go from 0% to approximately 40% in that time frame. Mr. Wilson’s announcement of this plan was made May 29, 2015 and the following focuses on a pilot who we will call, “First Officer Charlie Bucket”, hired immediately after the claim was originally made. We used the assumptions of the most junior CA being at 40% relative seniority (as it is now) and the airline staying the same size as it is today.
When we compare our 7-15-2015 Official Seniority List with the latest official Seniority List from January, we are able to get a sense as to where we started, where we are, and where we are headed.
A 1.33% relative seniority rate of change per month (40% total increase required dived by 30 months) is required on day one of training for a new hire to upgrade in 2.5 years at any airline where the junior captain is around 40% seniority like we find at Envoy. Since the announcement, Charlie Bucket has seen a relative seniority increase of 4.08%, which is approximately 0.68% per month, approximately half of what is required. Due to this stagnation, FO Charlie now has some significant catching up to do to attain a 2.5-year upgrade. Every month that goes by, it becomes more and more difficult to attain this goal.
In order to maintain a 1.33% rate of change Envoy would need to hire 805 pilots by the end of 2017. 34 new hires per month will be required, at a minimum, moving forward.
We hired 88 in the last 6 months of 2015.
These numbers take an assumed number of pilots we send to AA and average attrition relative to Charlie Bucket’s seniority into account.
The management of Envoy is ready, but AAG does not seem to be interested in allowing the necessary investments and improvements that would make our carrier competitive in comparison to our peer airlines. We quickly need to see announcements that would truly excite a new hire into choosing Envoy over an airline that offers faster upgrades, higher pay, and geographically varied bases.
We are extremely receptive to helping management improve the attractiveness of this carrier, and indeed have presented quality, durable recruitment and retention ideas that will both provide the necessary inducements for new hires to come here and existing pilots to stay here.
02-17-2016 | 09:01 AM
#1204
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
From a Union Email:
Fact Checker
In order to meet Captain Wilson’s 2.5 year upgrade plan a new hire pilot’s relative seniority needs to go from 0% to approximately 40% in that time frame. Mr. Wilson’s announcement of this plan was made May 29, 2015 and the following focuses on a pilot who we will call, “First Officer Charlie Bucket”, hired immediately after the claim was originally made. We used the assumptions of the most junior CA being at 40% relative seniority (as it is now) and the airline staying the same size as it is today.
When we compare our 7-15-2015 Official Seniority List with the latest official Seniority List from January, we are able to get a sense as to where we started, where we are, and where we are headed.
A 1.33% relative seniority rate of change per month (40% total increase required dived by 30 months) is required on day one of training for a new hire to upgrade in 2.5 years at any airline where the junior captain is around 40% seniority like we find at Envoy. Since the announcement, Charlie Bucket has seen a relative seniority increase of 4.08%, which is approximately 0.68% per month, approximately half of what is required. Due to this stagnation, FO Charlie now has some significant catching up to do to attain a 2.5-year upgrade. Every month that goes by, it becomes more and more difficult to attain this goal.
In order to maintain a 1.33% rate of change Envoy would need to hire 805 pilots by the end of 2017. 34 new hires per month will be required, at a minimum, moving forward.
We hired 88 in the last 6 months of 2015.
These numbers take an assumed number of pilots we send to AA and average attrition relative to Charlie Bucket’s seniority into account.
The management of Envoy is ready, but AAG does not seem to be interested in allowing the necessary investments and improvements that would make our carrier competitive in comparison to our peer airlines. We quickly need to see announcements that would truly excite a new hire into choosing Envoy over an airline that offers faster upgrades, higher pay, and geographically varied bases.
We are extremely receptive to helping management improve the attractiveness of this carrier, and indeed have presented quality, durable recruitment and retention ideas that will both provide the necessary inducements for new hires to come here and existing pilots to stay here.
Fact Checker
In order to meet Captain Wilson’s 2.5 year upgrade plan a new hire pilot’s relative seniority needs to go from 0% to approximately 40% in that time frame. Mr. Wilson’s announcement of this plan was made May 29, 2015 and the following focuses on a pilot who we will call, “First Officer Charlie Bucket”, hired immediately after the claim was originally made. We used the assumptions of the most junior CA being at 40% relative seniority (as it is now) and the airline staying the same size as it is today.
When we compare our 7-15-2015 Official Seniority List with the latest official Seniority List from January, we are able to get a sense as to where we started, where we are, and where we are headed.
A 1.33% relative seniority rate of change per month (40% total increase required dived by 30 months) is required on day one of training for a new hire to upgrade in 2.5 years at any airline where the junior captain is around 40% seniority like we find at Envoy. Since the announcement, Charlie Bucket has seen a relative seniority increase of 4.08%, which is approximately 0.68% per month, approximately half of what is required. Due to this stagnation, FO Charlie now has some significant catching up to do to attain a 2.5-year upgrade. Every month that goes by, it becomes more and more difficult to attain this goal.
In order to maintain a 1.33% rate of change Envoy would need to hire 805 pilots by the end of 2017. 34 new hires per month will be required, at a minimum, moving forward.
We hired 88 in the last 6 months of 2015.
These numbers take an assumed number of pilots we send to AA and average attrition relative to Charlie Bucket’s seniority into account.
The management of Envoy is ready, but AAG does not seem to be interested in allowing the necessary investments and improvements that would make our carrier competitive in comparison to our peer airlines. We quickly need to see announcements that would truly excite a new hire into choosing Envoy over an airline that offers faster upgrades, higher pay, and geographically varied bases.
We are extremely receptive to helping management improve the attractiveness of this carrier, and indeed have presented quality, durable recruitment and retention ideas that will both provide the necessary inducements for new hires to come here and existing pilots to stay here.
Envoy just flowed 30 over to AA in fact.
02-17-2016 | 09:17 AM
#1205
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
02-17-2016 | 09:31 AM
#1206
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 771
Likes: 0
From: Qualified to carry liquids through security.
You've got to be some sort of manager...
02-17-2016 | 09:57 AM
#1207
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Yes, they did. When it should have been 35!! It's clear as day, they don't intend to follow the contract! And they blamed this on "operational necessity." All while we're overstuffed and shrinking. What happens when we actually are short pilots? I understand we need new hires to move up and I was cautiously optimistic that this place was actually turning around. But, when things continue to get worse here (March lines were the worst ever), how in good conscious can you tell a new hire this a good place to work? With all the abuse, management negating the contract, etc.
You've got to be some sort of manager...
You've got to be some sort of manager...
02-17-2016 | 10:04 AM
#1208
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 771
Likes: 0
From: Qualified to carry liquids through security.
It's not about flowing 30, it's the principle of the matter. Claiming operational neccesity to withhold flows when we're overstaffed and shrinking. What happens when staffing here is extremely critical? That's why...
02-17-2016 | 10:21 AM
#1209
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 484
Likes: 0
From: EMB145 CA
I am happy that 30 have flowed, but that is a small part of the big problems at envoy. I am unhappy about constant contract violations. 35 were supposed to go and they know it. Why are we continuing to shrink RW? We have the best performing Regional airline in the country right now. Even if pilots are flowing, shrinkage kills the relative seniority. You have to keep flying and recruit in order for your self fulfilling prophecy to work.
02-17-2016 | 11:03 AM
#1210
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Likes: 0
I'm just trying to help answer the new hires question on here a few pages back. He was concerned about the viability of the 2 1/2 year upgrade and 6 year flow.
I'm just trying to allay those concerns. For some detractors, Envoy will never be good enough. That is until they are sitting in the right seat of some contractor regional as they see their Envoy buddies moving over to AA one after the other.
It's been beat to death here but the math and projections put out by the company actually work. Do you think they would actually advertise a 2 1/2 year upgrade and 6 year flow to AA if it weren't actually the case.
It's also my understanding that the lack of new hires is simply a case of many not making it through the interview. It's an AA interview after all as it will be your last interview before you retire. Obviously, the new hire poster a few pages back is AA material so he need not worry.
I would say to the new hire. Big things are happening here and it's moving fast. Be glad that you got on when you did as your ticket to an AA jet in under 6 years has already been punched.
I'm just trying to allay those concerns. For some detractors, Envoy will never be good enough. That is until they are sitting in the right seat of some contractor regional as they see their Envoy buddies moving over to AA one after the other.
It's been beat to death here but the math and projections put out by the company actually work. Do you think they would actually advertise a 2 1/2 year upgrade and 6 year flow to AA if it weren't actually the case.
It's also my understanding that the lack of new hires is simply a case of many not making it through the interview. It's an AA interview after all as it will be your last interview before you retire. Obviously, the new hire poster a few pages back is AA material so he need not worry.
I would say to the new hire. Big things are happening here and it's moving fast. Be glad that you got on when you did as your ticket to an AA jet in under 6 years has already been punched.
From what I've heard, it sounds like it's moving fast alright.............in reverse.
Good Luck !
Last edited by eaglefly; 02-17-2016 at 11:17 AM.
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