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Old 04-26-2016, 04:20 AM
  #2581  
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Originally Posted by Bigpimppilot View Post
? Hasn't envoy had 65 hr lines on average the last year or so because the planes were given away too fast? Not a staffing issue
I think that had a lot to do with the projected attrition. They gave away a lot of flying in anticipation of not being able to staff it. Then attrition slowed and we had more pilots than they expected. Now management is trying to bring more flying back in house and line values are over gurantee again.
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Old 04-26-2016, 04:44 AM
  #2582  
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Originally Posted by PilotJ3 View Post
You're out of touch with the legacies hiring realities. Talking to various United and Delta recruiters, all of the told me PIC is not required. They look at the overall picture of the person, not only PIC.

Delta specifically want pilots that have been loyal to their companies, more than 4 years in the same place. It doesn't matter if you're an FO or CA. They don't care if you're an FO because the upgrade times are being high, as far as you upgrade if you can you're good to go.
Exactly. I went to the delta WAI hiring briefing and they touched on the subject of long upgrade times at regionals. Arnie specifically mentioned envoy and Expressjet and he said they looked at other things in lieu of TPIC times. An example is that they use your CFI time in lieu of TPIC. That's not to say that it's more important, it's just that they know what's going on and they look into other factors. United understands this as well. I know of a few envoy and xjt perma FOs who were hired or interviewed at UAL and dal.
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Old 04-26-2016, 08:21 AM
  #2583  
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Originally Posted by cr700 View Post
We just had 35 new hires for April and are projecting even more for May.
Straight from the mouth of a gentleman in ENY recruitment over on EL, they have no idea how many will be in the May classes. In fact, he said they don't even know if the first May class will be in the teens.

Check your facts before you spout out unverified information.
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Old 04-26-2016, 08:42 AM
  #2584  
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Originally Posted by Skyvector View Post
Where do you keep getting this information from? I'm not sure about cr700 but the rest of us have been crystal clear with the numbers and projections from the beginning. In fact, here is a post by Cujo from November 2015:



As you can see, he even states that worst case for 2016 would be 225 flows depending on the number of furloughed AA pilots who return. I've said the same thing. Nobody here is implying anything that is false. On the other hand, you have people like ag386 and eaglefly who have been claiming from the start that the flow will never work. They base their claims on X number of new hires in the past. But now we are getting 25+ new hires. May will be similar if not more from the numbers I saw. So their argument just sunk to the bottom of the sea.

Why don't you ask those two why they have been lying?
Someone posing as management has been lying and or misleading potential new hires with pie in the sky projections. I can't ignore that. This mentality is similar to what we have going on with our current VP of flights ops spouting a 2.5 year upgrade. It won't happen. He started saying it 12 months ago and we've barely moved our upgrade during that time. Currently we need to upgrade around 600 in the next 18 months for his projections to work. It won't happen! I have reason to take exception as it's our coworkers who are duped and I sit next to them in the cockpit as they are realizing that they were lied to and it's their wives and kids who pay for it.

Theres no need to lie or mislead with the goings on here. When AAG wants something different for or from us they will make it so. Until then no amount of lying will move the needle here. The word is out on the street that envoy has had issues relating to employee relations on this exact issue and it continues daily with our RSV situation that the company refuses to address because its working great for them now and horrible for us. Same with the industry worst schedules...great for them, horrible for us. 20% of the ORD lines in May are commutable! That's unacceptable. Our company does not care and its business as usual. Parker has even told his middle managers at the recent Leadership conference they need to buy into the new style of employee relations at AAG or they will lose the airline(again). So I feel the need to call someone out when they start proclaiming 360 flows when the reality will be most likely be half that.

As for trolls who post here spouting nonsense I don't waste my time.
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Old 04-26-2016, 09:08 AM
  #2585  
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Originally Posted by Jersdawg View Post
Check your facts before you spout out unverified information.
Why would he start now?
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Old 04-26-2016, 12:13 PM
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Hiring bonus has being extended to Part 91(k) pilots.
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Old 04-26-2016, 12:18 PM
  #2587  
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Originally Posted by PilotJ3 View Post
Hiring bonus has being extended to Part 91(k) pilots.
Signs of things getting desperate.
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Old 04-26-2016, 12:33 PM
  #2588  
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Originally Posted by N927EV View Post
Exactly. I went to the delta WAI hiring briefing and they touched on the subject of long upgrade times at regionals. Arnie specifically mentioned envoy and Expressjet and he said they looked at other things in lieu of TPIC times. An example is that they use your CFI time in lieu of TPIC. That's not to say that it's more important, it's just that they know what's going on and they look into other factors. United understands this as well. I know of a few envoy and xjt perma FOs who were hired or interviewed at UAL and dal.
Yes, of course United and Delta have and will continue to hire those without 121 PIC from the regionals, but as a component of qualification, it is far better to have that experience (a checked box) then not. If two pilots are considered both with "loyalty" to a particular company of say 4 years, the one WITH 121 PIC is more apt to be selected, all other things being equal and that is a strike against Envoy considering their longer (above average) upgrade times.

But again, it doesn't matter whether I am an "angry old man" or an "Envoy hater" or any other nonsense some claim about me as that is simply irrelevant distraction (and inaccurate, but I'm sure emotionally satisfying). What IS important (and undeniable) is that Envoy will not flow itself either out of existence, nor to the point that they have to once again start relinquishing present feed assignments, at least not by choice. In the past, management made ridiculous claims they would park aircraft to keep the flow going and yet in March, they did the exact opposite by withholding a measly 5 pilots because of future staffing concerns. THIS is what should be of importance to pilots, i.e., not what they CLAIM (and a projection is a claim), but what they DO. In fact, the very act by Envoy to suck up more flying for AAG is one of the very things likely to haunt them and Envoy pilots in the future as the more flying they convince AAG they can take on now, the bigger monkey they have to feed going forward, meaning even more pilots or they shrink, AAG one again divests flying away from Envoy, upgrades slow further from already industry slow rates and eventually the flow is jeopardized.

Each and EVERY month going forward that provides anything fewer then 35-40 new-hires for Envoy is a master warning light requiring a checklist and as of now, even with Aprils hire numbers, Envoy is already behind the ball and should be keeping close watch for diversion airports.

Can they feed this HUGE (and increasing) monkey for another half decade consistently ?

I have STRONG doubts about that and that means another plan simply must come forward and likely sooner rather then later. THAT plan will likely mean MORE stability in the flow for Envoy pilots and other AAG regionals, but in exchange for that, more flexibility among eligible pilots meaning it will add more time to get to AA. Anyone is free to believe that going forward all will be unicorns and rainbows (complete with a pot of gold at the end) as some are advertising, but that is a recipe for disappointment and frustration. That is the SAME component behind many at Envoy now lamenting their long tenures as F/O's or the multitude of broken promises of the past that has led up to that long tenure.

Hopefully, the Charlie Buckets of the future will have more realistic expectations so as not to end up yet another generation of empty handed pilots with chips on their shoulders and feeling they have to resort to some of the tactics that seem especially prevalent at Envoy vs. other regionals as demonstrated on this forum.
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Old 04-26-2016, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ag386 View Post
Signs of things getting desperate.
If you think about it, the more flying they convince AAG they can do, the more pilots they must get to keep the house of cards from collapsing. It's like a junkie who develops a tolerance for their drug and must ingest higher doses of the drug for the same effect. Eventually, the junkie cannot support their habit and a predictable path to destruction occurs.

At this point Envoy HAS to bring in as many pilots as they lose or they are in trouble and with each increase in flying (the "habit"), the more of the "drug" (pilots) they need.

The question is how long can this vicious cycle continue ?
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Old 04-26-2016, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by eaglefly View Post
If you think about it, the more flying they convince AAG they can do, the more pilots they must get to keep the house of cards from collapsing. It's like a junkie who develops a tolerance for their drug and must ingest higher doses of the drug for the same effect. Eventually, the junkie cannot support their habit and a predictable path to destruction occurs.

At this point Envoy HAS to bring in as many pilots as they lose or they are in trouble and with each increase in flying (the "habit"), the more of the "drug" (pilots) they need.

The question is how long can this vicious cycle continue ?
One could argue the more pilots they keep getting the more flying they will keep getting and the more pilots they will get. A revolving door is in eagles history. If the flow works it'll pay off. The have alot of cards left to play still and it will take years for this to play out. They can merge envoy and piedmont short term, they can merge psa long term. They can buy someone. They can push someone into ch 11. They can just bring more flying to mainline. They can increase aa new hire class % to flow and stop any hopes of off the street pushing guys to the wo. They can issue hard seniority numbers. They honestly could give every envoy pilot 50k a year extra. The regional sector is in deep doo doo and trust me envoy isn't the one in danger for some time.
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