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Old 08-25-2016, 08:10 AM
  #4601  
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Originally Posted by Simpsons View Post
I don't see how that's acceptable at all. You're not there on vacation the company needs you there and you shouldn't have the possibility of being involuntarily removed from a flight to get home
It's positive space man, you're just like a paying passenger (albeit you're on the priority of those who purchase the cheapest tickets when going home) -- paying passengers also get bumped if stuff hits the fan and you have 180 people with tickets for a 160-seat flight. But that's not standby. I don't know the inner workings, I just know I haven't been bumped, nor has anyone I know (but definitely I know that it's happened). But going home it's probably more likely to be bumped than going to work as you're listed differently, at least for training events. It's not something I've worried about honestly. Besides, in the going to/from training situations, it's a heck of a lot better and less stressful than the other "going to or from work" trips for folks who live out of base and non-rev to work, like me, so I have no complaints in that regard.
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Old 08-25-2016, 08:11 AM
  #4602  
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Either he's doing an impression or it's the same guy. I can't really tell.


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Old 08-25-2016, 08:28 AM
  #4603  
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Originally Posted by 271c View Post
It's positive space man, you're just like a paying passenger (albeit you're on the priority of those who purchase the cheapest tickets when going home) -- paying passengers also get bumped if stuff hits the fan and you have 180 people with tickets for a 160-seat flight. But that's not standby. I don't know the inner workings, I just know I haven't been bumped, nor has anyone I know (but definitely I know that it's happened). But going home it's probably more likely to be bumped than going to work as you're listed differently, at least for training events. It's not something I've worried about honestly. Besides, in the going to/from training situations, it's a heck of a lot better and less stressful than the other "going to or from work" trips for folks who live out of base and non-rev to work, like me, so I have no complaints in that regard.
It's not "positive space" unless you have a guaranteed seat. And A3 ain't positive space.

If it's 7am and Envoy needs you to deadhead up to ORD for a 12pm sign in, I can guarantee you'll be A1 and can walk up 15 minutes before departure and the agent will go as far as pulling a revenue passenger off the flight to get you on. Why? Because Envoy/AAG needs you there to operate that flight. Why A3 on the way home? Because they don't need you at home for any reason. Unless...there's a flight they need you to operate. Then you'll be A1 and get on.

A3 is NOT positive space.
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Old 08-25-2016, 08:50 AM
  #4604  
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Originally Posted by 271c View Post
It's positive space man, you're just like a paying passenger (albeit you're on the priority of those who purchase the cheapest tickets when going home) -- paying passengers also get bumped if stuff hits the fan and you have 180 people with tickets for a 160-seat flight. But that's not standby. I don't know the inner workings, I just know I haven't been bumped, nor has anyone I know (but definitely I know that it's happened). But going home it's probably more likely to be bumped than going to work as you're listed differently, at least for training events. It's not something I've worried about honestly. Besides, in the going to/from training situations, it's a heck of a lot better and less stressful than the other "going to or from work" trips for folks who live out of base and non-rev to work, like me, so I have no complaints in that regard.
Ok, but what happens first? Do they pull you off of a flight or do they offer travel credit to passengers to voluntarily give up their seat?
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Old 08-25-2016, 08:58 AM
  #4605  
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Originally Posted by ag386 View Post
It's not "positive space" unless you have a guaranteed seat. And A3 ain't positive space.

If it's 7am and Envoy needs you to deadhead up to ORD for a 12pm sign in, I can guarantee you'll be A1 and can walk up 15 minutes before departure and the agent will go as far as pulling a revenue passenger off the flight to get you on. Why? Because Envoy/AAG needs you there to operate that flight. Why A3 on the way home? Because they don't need you at home for any reason. Unless...there's a flight they need you to operate. Then you'll be A1 and get on.

A3 is NOT positive space.
It's all about timing A3 if you check in early enough and are given a seat they won't take that seat from you even if it's oversold. The problem is with reserve and not enough time to check in. Say you are sitting standby and get a call for a turn and it's a deadhead home. You probably won't have time to check in and get a seat because they have all been allocated to other passengers. With enough time though like for training or it's your line A3 should get a seat
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Old 08-25-2016, 09:06 AM
  #4606  
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Originally Posted by ag386 View Post
It's not "positive space" unless you have a guaranteed seat. And A3 ain't positive space.

If it's 7am and Envoy needs you to deadhead up to ORD for a 12pm sign in, I can guarantee you'll be A1 and can walk up 15 minutes before departure and the agent will go as far as pulling a revenue passenger off the flight to get you on. Why? Because Envoy/AAG needs you there to operate that flight. Why A3 on the way home? Because they don't need you at home for any reason. Unless...there's a flight they need you to operate. Then you'll be A1 and get on.

A3 is NOT positive space.
I don't disagree about the differences between a1 and a3. But the term positive space doesn't imply a guaranteed seat. Not even paying passengers have that - people get bumped, cancelled, rolled over, etc. Positive space means you have been assigned a seat, a boarding pass. Yes, you could get bumped. Just like if I book a cheap ticket through Travelocity and check in last -- I'm gonna be first to get bumped.

Again, not disagreeing with the bulk of what you said, but by definition A3 is in fact positive space, albeit low priority amongst the revenue passengers -- it is not standby. You may feel it's about as valuable as standby, and in fact depending on your check in time you're exactly one spot above the first D1, but that's no different than some revenue pax.
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Old 08-25-2016, 09:16 AM
  #4607  
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Originally Posted by 271c View Post
I don't disagree about the differences between a1 and a3. But the term positive space doesn't imply a guaranteed seat. Not even paying passengers have that - people get bumped, cancelled, rolled over, etc. Positive space means you have been assigned a seat, a boarding pass. Yes, you could get bumped. Just like if I book a cheap ticket through Travelocity and check in last -- I'm gonna be first to get bumped.

Again, not disagreeing with the bulk of what you said, but by definition A3 is in fact positive space, albeit low priority amongst the revenue passengers -- it is not standby. You may feel it's about as valuable as standby, and in fact depending on your check in time you're exactly one spot above the first D1, but that's no different than some revenue pax.

Positive space, by definition, means that you are guaranteed a seat.

A former coworker of mine worked on special projects at his airline. He worked in management, during a merger, and did a very good job. The company rewarded him with positive space travel for life. He and his wife. He can show up to the gate without previously listing, tell the gate agent that he wants a seat - even on an oversold flight - and they will put him on it. No matter what.
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Old 08-25-2016, 09:16 AM
  #4608  
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Originally Posted by mesapilot86 View Post
Dude, no need to get all butt hurt about this guy. You Envoy guys are always happy over there right? Yep. Got it. Get treated really well, pay never messed up, great schedules with 17 days off each month, high credit lines, multiple bases to choose from. Plus that awesome flow that gets you to AA in less than 6 years right? Yeah, sure. Got it.

I'm younger than you and just happen to work at DFW as well. I was a Captain here right at the 2 year mark. How long does it take you Envoy guys to upgrade? Like 8 years right. Yeah, thought so. Got it. So, I'm a Captain after two years, building 121 PIC, got my app out with all the majors. I'll get a call way before you guys sitting around on your duffs waiting for that flow. Mesa isn't great but it sure isn't any worse than Envoy. I hold commutable lines with 15 days off every month. Do you have that at Envoy? Yep, thought so. Got it. I know, you have to commute in the night before and commute out the day after for your 14 hour 4 day trip. My 4 day trips are around 20.

So I will likely make it to a major years before you while you are sitting there waiting on your flow. Maybe you'll get tired of it and get desperate and do everything you can to get on with my major. Then you'll be pulling my gear. What would you think about that? Yep, thought so.

I'm way content here. And I don't work at your lousy outfit. Like I said, regionals are all bad. It's just Envoy is in the same boat with Mesa and is likely worse. Your guys schedules suck, your pay sucks, your management treats you like indentured servants. What else did I miss? Lots. Anyway, I just turned 30 and am sitting in the Captain's seat and building that PIC. Maybe you'll flow when you hit 40. Yep, thought so. Got it.

In what equipment you guys are hiring? Saw piedmont upgrading in 28days. Im considering.
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:59 AM
  #4609  
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Originally Posted by daOldMan View Post
Positive space, by definition, means that you are guaranteed a seat.

A former coworker of mine worked on special projects at his airline. He worked in management, during a merger, and did a very good job. The company rewarded him with positive space travel for life. He and his wife. He can show up to the gate without previously listing, tell the gate agent that he wants a seat - even on an oversold flight - and they will put him on it. No matter what.
You just made that definition up. And you don't get my point. Positive space is what people who purchase tickets get. You get a "confirmed seat." No, it is not "guaranteed" - I'd love to see an airline ticket or contract of carriage that says the seat is guaranteed. It never is -- how could it be? Your flight might get cancelled. The airline might have oversold the flight -- a legal right they have. At that point, whether you get on will depend upon your priority - how much you paid, when you checked in, whatever. The point of this discussion is that when you are flying to/from training, or on a deadhead, you are flown positive space -- you have a seat. It's not standby. Now if you get bumped in an oversold situation, that will depend on if you're A1 or A3, of course -- if you're A3, you're more likely to get bumped, because you're a lower priority status amongst all of the positive spacers (paying pax).

I can't speak to that deal with your buddy, and I'm not sure how that's relevant to a discussion about Envoy's policies regarding positive space tickets.

[not an authoritative source, but to show at least one website agrees with me] Positive Space -- Definition: Travel industry term for a confirmed seat booking. Negative Space: Travel industry term for an unconfirmed (standby) seat booking. Opposite of positive space.
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Old 08-25-2016, 11:00 AM
  #4610  
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Originally Posted by E175 Driver View Post
In what equipment you guys are hiring? Saw piedmont upgrading in 28days. Im considering.
For the love of all that is holy, please no one feed the never-ending troll on this one............... [yes, I know, I sort of fed him a small appetizer by typing this].
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