Envoy
12-25-2017, 07:55 AM
#6331
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 366
Originally Posted by new guy
Been absent for some time from the forums, but please correct me if I've read the last few hundred post incorrectly. As a military pilot looking to move into the commercial world, I interviewed at several regionals this past summer. Couldn't start because the army changed their minds on when I could get out. Either way, I'm approaching a separation point again and am trying to catch up. Tell me if I'm wrong regarding the following ;
1) new hire numbers have increased and per contract language, flow to American should have increased as well, but hasn't.
New hire numbers have increased substantially over the last 6-12 months. Envoy should be flowing 50% of all new hire slots at AA but is metering to the absolute minimum of 25/month. It’s complete BS.
2) there's such a shortage of CA that people over 1k are being forced into CA positions (this can't be true?)
100% accurate. As someone with 1000 hours 121 you will be forced to upgrade with almost certainty to New York.
3) upon involuntary upgrade, you also run the risk of being sent/assigned to another domicile for home base?
Answered in question 2.
4) I haven't seen anyone listing/discussing reserve/line holding times for NHs dependent upon the base. I've been able to find those numbers on both the endeavor and psa forums. Any chance someone here has them?
You most likely will hold a line within a few months unless you are awarded anything in DFW or CRJ ORD.
As someone looking at the regionals with inexperienced eyes, I can tell you that issues 1-3, if true, are non-starters for many of my peers and I. We understand that we'll be cogs in a different machine than the one we have been, but after years of not having choices, doing as your told, etc, none of us are looking for a second career that's more of the same.
1) new hire numbers have increased and per contract language, flow to American should have increased as well, but hasn't.
New hire numbers have increased substantially over the last 6-12 months. Envoy should be flowing 50% of all new hire slots at AA but is metering to the absolute minimum of 25/month. It’s complete BS.
2) there's such a shortage of CA that people over 1k are being forced into CA positions (this can't be true?)
100% accurate. As someone with 1000 hours 121 you will be forced to upgrade with almost certainty to New York.
3) upon involuntary upgrade, you also run the risk of being sent/assigned to another domicile for home base?
Answered in question 2.
4) I haven't seen anyone listing/discussing reserve/line holding times for NHs dependent upon the base. I've been able to find those numbers on both the endeavor and psa forums. Any chance someone here has them?
You most likely will hold a line within a few months unless you are awarded anything in DFW or CRJ ORD.
As someone looking at the regionals with inexperienced eyes, I can tell you that issues 1-3, if true, are non-starters for many of my peers and I. We understand that we'll be cogs in a different machine than the one we have been, but after years of not having choices, doing as your told, etc, none of us are looking for a second career that's more of the same.
12-25-2017, 08:24 AM
#6332
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: ERJ Right
Posts: 541
Originally Posted by new guy
Been absent for some time from the forums, but please correct me if I've read the last few hundred post incorrectly. As a military pilot looking to move into the commercial world, I interviewed at several regionals this past summer. Couldn't start because the army changed their minds on when I could get out. Either way, I'm approaching a separation point again and am trying to catch up. Tell me if I'm wrong regarding the following ;
1) new hire numbers have increased and per contract language, flow to American should have increased as well, but hasn't.
Envoy is limiting the number of flow throughs to 25 per month. The 25 only happens months that American hires. Envoy is trying to grow and they are trying to stop the bleeding of man power where ever they can. Based on minimum monthly flow numbers estimates are close to 9 years for those starting class here next week. An eternity in this business if you ask me.
2) there's such a shortage of CA that people over 1k are being forced into CA positions (this can't be true?) It's a 1000 hours 121 SIC or 1000 hours that fall within very specific regulatory criteria. Yes it's true. Show up here as a refugee from another airline you might be awarded upgrade to captain before you ever start IOE the first time around.
3) upon involuntary upgrade, you also run the risk of being sent/assigned to another domicile for home base?
YES!!! And this is probably the worst part of this whole debacle. Imagine a senior FO or even a former express jet captain that wants to escape that sinking ship. He or she lives in a DFW/IAH out station. They have been commuting for years and were ok with the temporary (6 month) two leg commute to ORD or LGA until they could transfer to DFW. Now against their will they are forced to become captain in our most junior base(s) and will be forced to do a two leg commute to reserve for the unenforceable future. Their QOL just hit rock bottom. The natural progression of paying one's dues as a FO bolstering one's seniority until they can obtain the base they want, when they want as a captain is now out of the question. The forcing people to upgrade is a short term solution that could yield unintended consequences. Specifically, making Envoy a less attractive place for one to hang their hat. How much of an impact remains to be seen but judging from your sentiment it may already be having an influence.
4) I haven't seen anyone listing/discussing reserve/line holding times for NHs dependent upon the base. I've been able to find those numbers on both the endeavor and psa forums. Any chance someone here has them?
All bases/ equipment except for those that have become stagnant due to limited hiring have historically short reserve times. Others can chime in with specifics but I would imagine no more than three months. With the exceptions being ORD CRJ and DFW 175. The DFW 175 has now hit true stagnation, and an appreciable portion of our lines were moved to Chicago. The last couple of NH classes did not have DFW 175 offered. There are those that are currently in the training pipeline but with no one coming in underneath them and zero growth forecasted for the status it's going to be a long haul for those frozen to the bottom of the seniority list. Attrition through upgrades and those moving on to other airlines will help, albeit much slower compared to the growth the status has seen for the last two years.
As someone looking at the regionals with inexperienced eyes, I can tell you that issues 1-3, if true, are non-starters for many of my peers and I. We understand that we'll be cogs in a different machine than the one we have been, but after years of not having choices, doing as your told, etc, none of us are looking for a second career that's more of the same.
1) new hire numbers have increased and per contract language, flow to American should have increased as well, but hasn't.
Envoy is limiting the number of flow throughs to 25 per month. The 25 only happens months that American hires. Envoy is trying to grow and they are trying to stop the bleeding of man power where ever they can. Based on minimum monthly flow numbers estimates are close to 9 years for those starting class here next week. An eternity in this business if you ask me.
2) there's such a shortage of CA that people over 1k are being forced into CA positions (this can't be true?) It's a 1000 hours 121 SIC or 1000 hours that fall within very specific regulatory criteria. Yes it's true. Show up here as a refugee from another airline you might be awarded upgrade to captain before you ever start IOE the first time around.
3) upon involuntary upgrade, you also run the risk of being sent/assigned to another domicile for home base?
YES!!! And this is probably the worst part of this whole debacle. Imagine a senior FO or even a former express jet captain that wants to escape that sinking ship. He or she lives in a DFW/IAH out station. They have been commuting for years and were ok with the temporary (6 month) two leg commute to ORD or LGA until they could transfer to DFW. Now against their will they are forced to become captain in our most junior base(s) and will be forced to do a two leg commute to reserve for the unenforceable future. Their QOL just hit rock bottom. The natural progression of paying one's dues as a FO bolstering one's seniority until they can obtain the base they want, when they want as a captain is now out of the question. The forcing people to upgrade is a short term solution that could yield unintended consequences. Specifically, making Envoy a less attractive place for one to hang their hat. How much of an impact remains to be seen but judging from your sentiment it may already be having an influence.
4) I haven't seen anyone listing/discussing reserve/line holding times for NHs dependent upon the base. I've been able to find those numbers on both the endeavor and psa forums. Any chance someone here has them?
All bases/ equipment except for those that have become stagnant due to limited hiring have historically short reserve times. Others can chime in with specifics but I would imagine no more than three months. With the exceptions being ORD CRJ and DFW 175. The DFW 175 has now hit true stagnation, and an appreciable portion of our lines were moved to Chicago. The last couple of NH classes did not have DFW 175 offered. There are those that are currently in the training pipeline but with no one coming in underneath them and zero growth forecasted for the status it's going to be a long haul for those frozen to the bottom of the seniority list. Attrition through upgrades and those moving on to other airlines will help, albeit much slower compared to the growth the status has seen for the last two years.
As someone looking at the regionals with inexperienced eyes, I can tell you that issues 1-3, if true, are non-starters for many of my peers and I. We understand that we'll be cogs in a different machine than the one we have been, but after years of not having choices, doing as your told, etc, none of us are looking for a second career that's more of the same.
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12-25-2017, 01:41 PM
#6333
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2017
Position: RW instructor pilot and Maintenance test pilot
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by babs
Answered in Bold
Originally Posted by 3GreenKSNA
Answers are in your text. Your concerns are truly valid and until issues 1-3 are resolved I can see Envoy being a no go for many.
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Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Thank you both for the information. At this point we military RW guys without prior FW time have a pretty good selection of companies with RTP to choose from. Many that leave military service (on the army side) desire to spend this new career based in Texas. It seems that on top of all the other bits of bad news, Texas is one of the harder bars to hold/get sweet sweet seniority. That's a drag.
12-25-2017, 06:12 PM
#6334
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 185
Looking at regionals for my first 121 job. Envoy was my first pick. But after reading through the latest threads it seems that :
- morale is low
- the advertised flow is a lie
- the pay is far lower than EDV
- the scheduling isn't great
+ I want to be NYC based and that should be easy to get
+ Travels benefits are slightly better than EDV (same priority as mainline, buddy passes, 24h check-in... right?)
Can we reasonably expect a pay raise to at least match Endeavor in the upcoming months? Am I being stupid to even consider interviewing with Envoy, or did I miss something?
- morale is low
- the advertised flow is a lie
- the pay is far lower than EDV
- the scheduling isn't great
+ I want to be NYC based and that should be easy to get
+ Travels benefits are slightly better than EDV (same priority as mainline, buddy passes, 24h check-in... right?)
Can we reasonably expect a pay raise to at least match Endeavor in the upcoming months? Am I being stupid to even consider interviewing with Envoy, or did I miss something?
12-25-2017, 06:27 PM
#6335
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,729
Originally Posted by Montcalm
Looking at regionals for my first 121 job. Envoy was my first pick. But after reading through the latest threads it seems that :
- morale is low
- the advertised flow is a lie
- the pay is far lower than EDV
- the scheduling isn't great
+ I want to be NYC based and that should be easy to get
+ Travels benefits are slightly better than EDV (same priority as mainline, buddy passes, 24h check-in... right?)
Can we reasonably expect a pay raise to at least match Endeavor in the upcoming months? Am I being stupid to even consider interviewing with Envoy, or did I miss something?
- morale is low
- the advertised flow is a lie
- the pay is far lower than EDV
- the scheduling isn't great
+ I want to be NYC based and that should be easy to get
+ Travels benefits are slightly better than EDV (same priority as mainline, buddy passes, 24h check-in... right?)
Can we reasonably expect a pay raise to at least match Endeavor in the upcoming months? Am I being stupid to even consider interviewing with Envoy, or did I miss something?
As for the rest of your questions there’s been rumors both ways regarding pay so who really knows.
12-25-2017, 06:37 PM
#6336
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 1,609
Originally Posted by Montcalm
Looking at regionals for my first 121 job. Envoy was my first pick. But after reading through the latest threads it seems that :
- morale is low
- the advertised flow is a lie
- the pay is far lower than EDV
- the scheduling isn't great
+ I want to be NYC based and that should be easy to get
+ Travels benefits are slightly better than EDV (same priority as mainline, buddy passes, 24h check-in... right?)
Can we reasonably expect a pay raise to at least match Endeavor in the upcoming months? Am I being stupid to even consider interviewing with Envoy, or did I miss something?
- morale is low
- the advertised flow is a lie
- the pay is far lower than EDV
- the scheduling isn't great
+ I want to be NYC based and that should be easy to get
+ Travels benefits are slightly better than EDV (same priority as mainline, buddy passes, 24h check-in... right?)
Can we reasonably expect a pay raise to at least match Endeavor in the upcoming months? Am I being stupid to even consider interviewing with Envoy, or did I miss something?
As for flow- I have yet to see anything that the recruiters put out in the past year that I would call a lie. Maybe they were a bit overly optimistic but I don't know. I personally think NHs today will flow in about 6 years. I'm probably the ONLY person who would tell you this and actually think it's a possibility. I'd give it better than 50% odds on it. The 8-9 year projections is without any attrition. I think attrition is going to be much higher over the next 5 years. Attrition is the only way it drops to 6ish years.
12-25-2017, 07:25 PM
#6337
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by Montcalm
Looking at regionals for my first 121 job. Envoy was my first pick. But after reading through the latest threads it seems that :
- morale is low
- the advertised flow is a lie
- the pay is far lower than EDV
- the scheduling isn't great
+ I want to be NYC based and that should be easy to get
+ Travels benefits are slightly better than EDV (same priority as mainline, buddy passes, 24h check-in... right?)
Can we reasonably expect a pay raise to at least match Endeavor in the upcoming months? Am I being stupid to even consider interviewing with Envoy, or did I miss something?
- morale is low
- the advertised flow is a lie
- the pay is far lower than EDV
- the scheduling isn't great
+ I want to be NYC based and that should be easy to get
+ Travels benefits are slightly better than EDV (same priority as mainline, buddy passes, 24h check-in... right?)
Can we reasonably expect a pay raise to at least match Endeavor in the upcoming months? Am I being stupid to even consider interviewing with Envoy, or did I miss something?
There are ups and downs, I don't know if there is a best/perfect regional to work for... and if you pick one, the forum's popular opinions change within 6 months.
12-25-2017, 07:30 PM
#6338
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 190
Originally Posted by Skid Mark
To be fair, remember the forums are always full of complaining pilots... no matter the company you choose. I honestly haven't seen an abundance of "low morale" at the company... and we were the highest payer for awhile until the most recent revelations in recent contracts.
There are ups and downs, I don't know if there is a best/perfect regional to work for... and if you pick one, the forum's popular opinions change within 6 months.
There are ups and downs, I don't know if there is a best/perfect regional to work for... and if you pick one, the forum's popular opinions change within 6 months.
12-25-2017, 08:34 PM
#6339
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 606
I'm a military rotorhead making the jump as well, but I already have my airplane ratings and hours. I don't need an RTP, but I want to live in the Chicago area, hence an ORD base, so Envoy is on my short list.
I definitely am not going to rely on 'flow,' though it makes for a nice insurance policy for career progression. However, is it true its around 9 years now? I saw the Envoy ALPA union throw some info up on social media about it and, anything circa an entire decade is a joke in the regional industry. In other words, flow isn't even worth factoring into the equation... it's like a quinary consideration after pay, schedule, work rules, domicile (e.g. quality of life factors). Since Envoy seems like it's lacking across the board, airlines like Endeavor or Air Wisconsin seem that much more appealing.
I think if Envoy improved their pilot contract, they'd be a viable contender. As for now, flow is a pipe dream and they have a subpar contract.
I definitely am not going to rely on 'flow,' though it makes for a nice insurance policy for career progression. However, is it true its around 9 years now? I saw the Envoy ALPA union throw some info up on social media about it and, anything circa an entire decade is a joke in the regional industry. In other words, flow isn't even worth factoring into the equation... it's like a quinary consideration after pay, schedule, work rules, domicile (e.g. quality of life factors). Since Envoy seems like it's lacking across the board, airlines like Endeavor or Air Wisconsin seem that much more appealing.
I think if Envoy improved their pilot contract, they'd be a viable contender. As for now, flow is a pipe dream and they have a subpar contract.
12-25-2017, 08:54 PM
#6340
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,523
Originally Posted by Montcalm
Looking at regionals for my first 121 job. Envoy was my first pick. But after reading through the latest threads it seems that :
- morale is low
- the advertised flow is a lie
- the pay is far lower than EDV
- the scheduling isn't great
+ I want to be NYC based and that should be easy to get
+ Travels benefits are slightly better than EDV (same priority as mainline, buddy passes, 24h check-in... right?)
Can we reasonably expect a pay raise to at least match Endeavor in the upcoming months? Am I being stupid to even consider interviewing with Envoy, or did I miss something?
- morale is low
- the advertised flow is a lie
- the pay is far lower than EDV
- the scheduling isn't great
+ I want to be NYC based and that should be easy to get
+ Travels benefits are slightly better than EDV (same priority as mainline, buddy passes, 24h check-in... right?)
Can we reasonably expect a pay raise to at least match Endeavor in the upcoming months? Am I being stupid to even consider interviewing with Envoy, or did I miss something?
With the exception of a few management goofs on the interwebs, flow isn't being falsely advertised. The recruiters won't blow smoke up your rear end. They will straight up tell you that flow is 8-9 years for a new hire today.
Pay is definitely inferior to EDV. Those guys are being paid an awesome living. Without looking at the rates right now to confirm my memory, I believe a 3 year FO at EDV makes only $8/hr less than a 3 year CA at Envoy. And a 5 year CA at EDV makes somewhere in the ballpark of $20/hr more than a 5 year CA at Envoy. Our management has stated that they don't intend to raise pay until hiring numbers start taking a big hit here.
Schedules blow. However, NY does have the best lines in the system. Those guys actually see some 18+ day off lines. But overall, it's no secret that we have some of the worst, inefficient, low days off lines out there.
Yep, LGA is super easy to get in either seat and they will continue to grow the operation there.
Travel benefits at the AA WOs are the absolute best in the regionals. Everything you said in regards to the travel benefits are true.
Bottom line, you wouldn't be stupid to pick Envoy or EDV. If I were in your shoes though, especially wanting a NY base, I think I would go with EDV simply for the great pay, better work rules and better QOL. Unless you have some skeletons in your closet that will prevent you from landing a legacy gig, the flow is worthless. You'll move on well before you'd see a flow. What I typically recommend to guys is if you live in an EDV base, go there. If you live in and Envoy base, go there. If you live in a base that serves both EDV and Envoy, or if you're going to commute no matter what, go to EDV. If you don't have a 4 year degree or you have some other sketchy things on your record then having that flow insurance in your back pocket at Envoy would be enough to tip the scales that way.
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