How do you REALLY build time?

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06-13-2009, 06:25 AM

#21

FlyJSH

Day puke

Joined APC: Feb 2006

Position: Out.

Posts: 3,865

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasserine06

I wish I could get into the grind! I would love to fly for peanuts (on a side note, there is a lot of talk about pilot unity and not accepting low wages for any type of flying once you have your commercial, but it would be pretty hard for me to demand more money from some banner towing company when they are already cutting me a break on their minimums), but insurance companies are killing me. I am able train students to fly a twin down to minimums in 10-15 hours, give some teen the right to fly alone after 20 hours, and ferry an airplane across the country, but the local news channel wont trust me to fly a 150 in an area I know like the back of my hand until I have 1200 hours.

Thanks for the help. I know there are bigger problems in the industry than me not being able to build time, but thanks a lot for the input.

IF anybody on this board gives you crap for taking a low paying job in a 172 (the old "you're destroying the industry" song), ignore them. That job is not taking any flying away from a mainline, it isn't pay for training, it isn't a non-union scab job. It's a job to get your feet wet, learn some things, pay a bill or two, build time, and become a better pilot.

And try not to harp on the companies that won't hire you. When it comes to getting hired, many folks who have been in this industry a while have batting averages worse than an American League pitcher. Just keep swinging.

If significantly high minimums do become the norm, all new pilots will be facing the same problem as you. Many will get discouraged and drop out, eliminating some of the competition.

(One of your posts mentioned medical issues. I have some experience with difficult medicals. PM me if you want specific help)

06-13-2009, 07:05 AM

#22

Kasserine06

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Thread Starter

Joined APC: Mar 2009

Position: Box Pusher

Posts: 151

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMCFLYR

You do realize that you are about to receive a hundred messages directed at you along the lines that your attitude that you don't care what you make and would love to make regional wages is killing the profession of the airline pilot.....right?

APC - please tread lightly here and educate - don't castrate.

USMCFLYR

Getting paid $20,000 to fly 10-now 94 people around is a lot different than flying a 172. I am at a different career level where most of the jobs don’t even have a salary. If others want to blame me for destroying the industry because I am taking low paying jobs outside of 121, than I would like to ask them what they got paid for their first few jobs. Everyone talks about paying your dues, so if someone wants to blame the collapse of the industry on me trying to pay my dues, so be it. That being said, everyone so far has given some good information and no one has jumped down my throat yet. Thanks for the heads up though.

06-13-2009, 09:02 AM

#23

The Juice

ULTP-Ultra Low Tier Pilot

Joined APC: Dec 2007

Posts: 3,228

Quote:

Originally Posted by 250 or point 65

How long does it take to wash one plane? An hour? That means he's paying you $100+/hr? That doesn't make sense. Not calling BS on your story, but I would guess the OP would have a hard time finding someone willing to just dish out flight time in exchange for something he could pay min wage for.

I assume you have never worked on a line at an FBO. A basic single engine wash runs about $125, want wax and you are looking at $275 total and dont expect to get that prop spinner nice and shiney without popping out more cash. This is not something you get done for minumum wage as you suggest.

If a plane rents for $125 an hour, it does not mean the cost is the same. Flight clubs are great because the planes are owned by club members who rent them out to other members for slightly over cost. I used to fly a warrior for $79/hr wet and that was TACH time, not hobbs. His cost was about $60 an hour when I asked him.

So I do not think it is BS to think a plane owner would trade 1 hour of flight ($60 cost) for a plane wash ($125+)

Plus I think there is good will amongst older pilots willing to help out a younger pilot wanting to fly and doing it on his own.

06-13-2009, 09:05 AM

#24

ryan1234

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Joined APC: Jun 2008

Position: USAF

Posts: 1,398

Quote:

Originally Posted by 250 or point 65

I've washed aircraft for flight time, painted hangar doors, etc... there are people out there who are more than willing to give you a few hours for some hard work. Many people are willing to help you out, especially if you have the right attitude, can get along with people, and show a genuine interest in their aircraft/projects. Aviation is all about networking... it can start while you are trying to build hours. Many people would feel better about letting someone wash/fly their aircraft if you are a pilot or instructor and have a good attitude about everything.

There are a lot of good opportunities out there (I've heard of guys getting a couple hours in some pretty cool aircraft and doing a ferry deal to airshows for some pilots) - most times it seems like it is all who and when - just timing really - but when you are at the airport more, you expose yourself to that.

Getting a CFI really helps you out though... whether you work flight instructing full time or not. Some people will be ok with you using their personal aircraft (to keep it flying and lubricated if you just put gas in it or something), if you can do their BFR or something like that.

Hanging around the airport may not be so bad, especially if you get around an A&P IA... maybe work towards your A&P while waiting to build hours - it will build your reputation as well.

Flight Instructing isn't all that bad either if you are in a good spot with good people.

*Whatever you do to build hours - just try to be really good and reliable - you never know who might put in a good word for you for a really great corporate gig.

Best of Luck!

06-13-2009, 09:20 AM

#25

AirWillie

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Joined APC: Nov 2005

Position: MD80

Posts: 1,111

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasserine06

First off, I know this is in the wrong place, but I cannot access any other page. Everyone keeps talking about raising the hiring minimums for 121 carriers to prevent 250 hour pilots from being right seat in a CRJ. Not only will this increase safety, but apparently it would raise pay because someone with 1500 hours will be able to demand more pay than someone with only 250. I do not agree that would work. It does not matter that you have 1500 TT because that is still the minimum time so you will still get a low wage.

Enough of that, what I really want to talk about are these mythical time building jobs. First off, I want to say that I believe all 121 should have a minimum of 1000 hours and nothing less. The problem is that it is impossible to go from 250 to 1000. Many of you say, “Tow banners, patrol pipelines, traffic watch, and my favorite, sit right seat in a King Air.” I have looked for all of those, but there is a big problem. They either do not pay enough to live, or their minimums are higher than regionals. Towing banners pays about $8000 a year and will require me to move. I wanted to patrol pipelines, but their minimums where so high I they told me they would let me sit right seat in a 185 for free. Traffic watch does not exist anymore, and where it does, no news company is going to trust their expensive airplane with someone who has less than 1000 hours. I have found someone with a BE90 who would let me sit right seat, but I could not log the time because he does not have his MEI and I don’t think any future employer would like me to log dual given in turbine aircraft when I have zero turbine time. What I have noticed is that all 135 gigs have higher minimums than 121 because no 135 operator wants a VFR only pilot.

The only real way to build time is to flight instruct, and that is pretty hard for the location I am in, so I am looking for any place in the world to do it. I am not complaining because I don’t meet any minimums outside of low time regionals, I just want to bring attention to those who did their time building years ago that the jobs they did in the past are no longer available. So next time you talk about TT remember that building 1000 hours is not as simple as flying night cargo for a while. To do that job you need to have 1200 hours first, and with that time, why would you apply for a low paying job to fly boxes in a Barron when you could be getting paid the same to get some part 121 turbine time?

It's very hard, you missed the low time hiring wave. Although even at the airlines no one would hire you with just 2-300 hours you still needed some kind of RJ course. But yea, you might have been able to find these other entry level pt91 jobs a lot quicker then now. I agree the BE90 job is a waste. I can assure you that even the guys that are doing the "dual given" thing in a king air, they are just wasting their time. Most airlines, I don't know corporate, do not recognize that as any form of valid time for purposes of experience. That is if they find out of course.... if you are actually dumb enough to tell them that you have been pretending to be an SIC in a single pilot ops.

You are not in a position to be picky if you don't want to instruct. Often times not instructing means paying money, like a CRJ program a type rating or whatever. But that will not work this year and maybe even the next. What airlines and employees want now is TOTAL TIME. They could care less if you have a turbo charged resume, there is not substitution for TOTAL TIME. They don't care that you've had 200 hours as a space shuttle commander, if you don't have 1000 or 2000 you are not getting in. Therefore, take anything you can get, including the 8000 dollar gig unless you really can't survive on it. Forget about going abroad, none is going to hire an unknown from a different continent, unless you have thousands of hours. I would strongly recommend you do the CFI, some studying and being able to teach the basic pp/com maneuvers is all it is. There are CFI jobs out there, the student loads have dropped but 40 hours per month is better than 0.

06-13-2009, 09:57 AM

#26

Kasserine06

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Thread Starter

Joined APC: Mar 2009

Position: Box Pusher

Posts: 151

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirWillie

You are not in a position to be picky if you don't want to instruct..

I do like instructing. I have about 200 dual given and like many have said before, it has been more valuable than 200 dual received. The problem is after a while of teaching someone how to do an ILS approach; I kind of want to do one too and not just for currency. It is nice to get paid for instructing, but I would like to find something that pays to fly. Also, there are not too many people willing to take flight lessons anymore.

06-13-2009, 11:01 AM

#27

250 or point 65

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Joined APC: Aug 2008

Posts: 999

k, just for the record guys. i was not calling BS, it just did not make sense to me. thanks for the education.

air willie, good job rationalizing that crj course you paid for. no airline required it. all the guys that had a crj course in my class struggled through systems. also, its a good thing the OP missed the 2-300 hr hirng wave. when he's a captain he will actually have made a decision in the cockpit before getting his 4th stripe.

06-13-2009, 12:07 PM

#28

AirWillie

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Joined APC: Nov 2005

Position: MD80

Posts: 1,111

Quote:

Originally Posted by 250 or point 65

No RJ course for me. The only way you are going to realize how worthless an RJ course is once you actually make it to an airline sim training. The decisions you speak of are all relative. PIC teaching is different than PIC flying.

06-13-2009, 12:12 PM

#29

AirWillie

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Joined APC: Nov 2005

Position: MD80

Posts: 1,111

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasserine06

What better job can you have to ride along on an airplane, be paid and log PIC at the same time? Times are tough but it will get better, life will go on. Pretty soon you'll be doing an approach on a jet over and over with an auto pilot, you're going to be wishing you were down there in a 172.

06-13-2009, 12:14 PM

#30

USMCFLYR

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Joined APC: Mar 2008

Position: FAA 'Flight Check'

Posts: 13,837

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasserine06

No Kass - I was talking about the fact that if you took that mentally furtner into your career down the line, not flying a C-172. Everyone does have to start somewhere....but the rules of the game seem to change as you progress further down the career path too....just don't forget to change with them.

USMCFLYR