Frontier Hiring.
08-01-2016 | 06:19 AM
#5041
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Joined: Jul 2013
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Allegiant Air | AirlinePilotCentral.com
Frontier Airlines | AirlinePilotCentral.com
Major-National-LCC | AirlinePilotCentral.com
08-01-2016 | 08:25 AM
#5042
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 495
Likes: 1
From: A320 CA
The comparison becomes murky when you start trying to place a value on some of the work rules and other conditions in the contract. Just as a quick example, Allegiant is allowed to schedule pilots for a certain number of single days off in any given month. Frontier's CBA (except for special/limited circumstances) prohibits single days off. What's this worth to you?
I'm certainly no expert on the new Allegiant contract, but there are probably hundreds of these types of things. Some beancounter could claim to assign a value to each of these items down to the penny, but I still think it comes down to what an individual pilot deems important.
With all this being said, the top F9 captain rate as of today is $160.21/hr. I don't have the number in front of me, but I seem to recall the new Allegiant top rate is somewhere around $205/hr. I think even the most pro-company-biased beancounter would have a tough time saying the difference in our work rules makes up this kind of disparity.
I hear all the time that Frontier's work rules are uber fantastic. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. Yes, we have a few things that are very desirable, but the contract package is lacking in so many other aspects that the net result is an average to below-average quality of life.
If I had to explain our contract to a non aviation person, I'd say we're paid well below industry average, but our contract allows us to work extra hard so we can obtain approximately 80% of industry average by working 125% as hard as an average pilot.
I want to make it clear that I'm not taking anything away from the accomplishments of Allegiant with their new contract. I think they've definitely improved their position. I'm hoping our negotiating committee will do the same for us.
08-01-2016 | 09:19 AM
#5043
On Reserve
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 195
Likes: 6
From: Airbus CA
08-01-2016 | 11:46 AM
#5044
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
From: Yellow Bus
It's tough to make a direct comparison. My understanding is that even Allegiant's new contract contains some objectionable language and provisions. Their new hourly rates are significantly higher than our hourly rates. This is the easy part to compare.
The comparison becomes murky when you start trying to place a value on some of the work rules and other conditions in the contract. Just as a quick example, Allegiant is allowed to schedule pilots for a certain number of single days off in any given month. Frontier's CBA (except for special/limited circumstances) prohibits single days off. What's this worth to you?
I'm certainly no expert on the new Allegiant contract, but there are probably hundreds of these types of things. Some beancounter could claim to assign a value to each of these items down to the penny, but I still think it comes down to what an individual pilot deems important.
With all this being said, the top F9 captain rate as of today is $160.21/hr. I don't have the number in front of me, but I seem to recall the new Allegiant top rate is somewhere around $205/hr. I think even the most pro-company-biased beancounter would have a tough time saying the difference in our work rules makes up this kind of disparity.
I hear all the time that Frontier's work rules are uber fantastic. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. Yes, we have a few things that are very desirable, but the contract package is lacking in so many other aspects that the net result is an average to below-average quality of life.
If I had to explain our contract to a non aviation person, I'd say we're paid well below industry average, but our contract allows us to work extra hard so we can obtain approximately 80% of industry average by working 125% as hard as an average pilot.
I want to make it clear that I'm not taking anything away from the accomplishments of Allegiant with their new contract. I think they've definitely improved their position. I'm hoping our negotiating committee will do the same for us.
The comparison becomes murky when you start trying to place a value on some of the work rules and other conditions in the contract. Just as a quick example, Allegiant is allowed to schedule pilots for a certain number of single days off in any given month. Frontier's CBA (except for special/limited circumstances) prohibits single days off. What's this worth to you?
I'm certainly no expert on the new Allegiant contract, but there are probably hundreds of these types of things. Some beancounter could claim to assign a value to each of these items down to the penny, but I still think it comes down to what an individual pilot deems important.
With all this being said, the top F9 captain rate as of today is $160.21/hr. I don't have the number in front of me, but I seem to recall the new Allegiant top rate is somewhere around $205/hr. I think even the most pro-company-biased beancounter would have a tough time saying the difference in our work rules makes up this kind of disparity.
I hear all the time that Frontier's work rules are uber fantastic. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. Yes, we have a few things that are very desirable, but the contract package is lacking in so many other aspects that the net result is an average to below-average quality of life.
If I had to explain our contract to a non aviation person, I'd say we're paid well below industry average, but our contract allows us to work extra hard so we can obtain approximately 80% of industry average by working 125% as hard as an average pilot.
I want to make it clear that I'm not taking anything away from the accomplishments of Allegiant with their new contract. I think they've definitely improved their position. I'm hoping our negotiating committee will do the same for us.
Lol, work "extra hard" to make 80% of your peers....sounds like a bad deal. I'd rather "barely work" to make 100% of my peers
All LCC Airbus pilots should easily make 100-150k as FO just on guarantee. and CAs around 200-240k. That's fair for an LCC in my mind. That's net and on guarantee with ~15 days off. I don't think that's unreasonable
08-01-2016 | 08:18 PM
#5045
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 495
Likes: 1
From: A320 CA
Lol, work "extra hard" to make 80% of your peers....sounds like a bad deal. I'd rather "barely work" to make 100% of my peers
All LCC Airbus pilots should easily make 100-150k as FO just on guarantee. and CAs around 200-240k. That's fair for an LCC in my mind. That's net and on guarantee with ~15 days off. I don't think that's unreasonable
All LCC Airbus pilots should easily make 100-150k as FO just on guarantee. and CAs around 200-240k. That's fair for an LCC in my mind. That's net and on guarantee with ~15 days off. I don't think that's unreasonable
That works for me... Making what my peers make for doing the same job as my peers.
Sorry I was so off the mark on the new Allegiant rates. I should've been less lazy and looked them up before referencing them in my post.
08-02-2016 | 07:34 AM
#5046
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
From: in a Big Box that moves back,forth, up, down and makes cool sounds
08-02-2016 | 07:39 AM
#5047
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
From: in a Big Box that moves back,forth, up, down and makes cool sounds
I hear all the time that Frontier's work rules are uber fantastic. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. Yes, we have a few things that are very desirable, but the contract package is lacking in so many other aspects that the net result is an average to below-average quality of life..
FWIW, I'm on the outside looking in.
Thank You
K
08-02-2016 | 12:29 PM
#5048
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 495
Likes: 1
From: A320 CA
Good things:
1. Ability to replace used sick time on a "per duty period" basis.
If a pilot uses 2 days of sick time to cover a 12 hour 2 day trip, he can replace these sick days by picking up a 2 day trip containing one 75 minute leg on the 1st day and a deadhead back home on day 2.
2. Ability to modify our awarded lines of flying by using a free market style system for adds, drops, swaps and trades.
This point probably needs an asterisk notation because certain pilot-hating company representatives in crew planning continue to sabotage the system by hiding trips and doing anything they can think of to drive as much flying away from lineholders and towards reserves that have been bought and paid for via a minimum monthly guarantee.
3. Multiple specific duty periods for reserves. No airport or ready reserve requirement. Limitations, in some cases, on maximum duty period that protect us from the holes left for reserves by Part 117.
There may be more, but I'm really struggling to come up with much good to say. If you read my original post, that was my point. Folks almost reflexively say things like "our pay sucks, but we've got great work rules." As I said, there are a couple of good things, but in the end, not nearly enough to make up for wages that are $70-$90 per hour lower than they should be.
Last edited by OpenClimb; 08-02-2016 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Fixing a typo or two.
08-02-2016 | 12:48 PM
#5049
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 0
Sure. I'll give it a whirl, but understand that I'm in no way saying our contract is even close to adequate. I never know when people ask these types of questions if their intent is to engage in some sort of debate to make the point that our work rules aren't all they're cracked up to be. I'm conceding your point if that's your intent.
Good things:
1. Ability to replace used sick time on a "per duty period" basis.
If a pilot uses 2 days of sick time to cover a 12 hour 2 day trip, he can replace these sick days by picking up a 2 day trip containing one 75 minute leg on the 1st day and a deadhead back home on day 2.
2. Ability to modify our awarded lines of flying by using a free market style system for adds, drops, swaps and trades.
This point probably needs an asterisk notation because certain pilot-hating company representatives in crew planning continue to sabotage the system by hiding trips and doing anything they can think of to drive as much flying away from lineholders and towards reserves that have been bought and paid for via a minimum monthly guarantee.
3. Multiple specific duty periods for reserves. No airport or ready reserve requirement. Limitations, in some cases, on maximum duty period that protect us from the holes left for reserves by Part 117.
There may be more, but I'm really struggling to come up with much good to say. If you read my original post, that was my point. Folks almost reflexively say things like "our pay sucks, but we've got great work rules." As I said, there are a couple of good things, but in the end, not nearly enough to make up for wages that are $70-$90 per hour lower than they should be.
Good things:
1. Ability to replace used sick time on a "per duty period" basis.
If a pilot uses 2 days of sick time to cover a 12 hour 2 day trip, he can replace these sick days by picking up a 2 day trip containing one 75 minute leg on the 1st day and a deadhead back home on day 2.
2. Ability to modify our awarded lines of flying by using a free market style system for adds, drops, swaps and trades.
This point probably needs an asterisk notation because certain pilot-hating company representatives in crew planning continue to sabotage the system by hiding trips and doing anything they can think of to drive as much flying away from lineholders and towards reserves that have been bought and paid for via a minimum monthly guarantee.
3. Multiple specific duty periods for reserves. No airport or ready reserve requirement. Limitations, in some cases, on maximum duty period that protect us from the holes left for reserves by Part 117.
There may be more, but I'm really struggling to come up with much good to say. If you read my original post, that was my point. Folks almost reflexively say things like "our pay sucks, but we've got great work rules." As I said, there are a couple of good things, but in the end, not nearly enough to make up for wages that are $70-$90 per hour lower than they should be.
08-02-2016 | 05:20 PM
#5050
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Sure. I'll give it a whirl, but understand that I'm in no way saying our contract is even close to adequate. I never know when people ask these types of questions if their intent is to engage in some sort of debate to make the point that our work rules aren't all they're cracked up to be. I'm conceding your point if that's your intent.
Good things:
1. Ability to replace used sick time on a "per duty period" basis.
If a pilot uses 2 days of sick time to cover a 12 hour 2 day trip, he can replace these sick days by picking up a 2 day trip containing one 75 minute leg on the 1st day and a deadhead back home on day 2.
2. Ability to modify our awarded lines of flying by using a free market style system for adds, drops, swaps and trades.
This point probably needs an asterisk notation because certain pilot-hating company representatives in crew planning continue to sabotage the system by hiding trips and doing anything they can think of to drive as much flying away from lineholders and towards reserves that have been bought and paid for via a minimum monthly guarantee.
3. Multiple specific duty periods for reserves. No airport or ready reserve requirement. Limitations, in some cases, on maximum duty period that protect us from the holes left for reserves by Part 117.
There may be more, but I'm really struggling to come up with much good to say. If you read my original post, that was my point. Folks almost reflexively say things like "our pay sucks, but we've got great work rules." As I said, there are a couple of good things, but in the end, not nearly enough to make up for wages that are $70-$90 per hour lower than they should be.
Good things:
1. Ability to replace used sick time on a "per duty period" basis.
If a pilot uses 2 days of sick time to cover a 12 hour 2 day trip, he can replace these sick days by picking up a 2 day trip containing one 75 minute leg on the 1st day and a deadhead back home on day 2.
2. Ability to modify our awarded lines of flying by using a free market style system for adds, drops, swaps and trades.
This point probably needs an asterisk notation because certain pilot-hating company representatives in crew planning continue to sabotage the system by hiding trips and doing anything they can think of to drive as much flying away from lineholders and towards reserves that have been bought and paid for via a minimum monthly guarantee.
3. Multiple specific duty periods for reserves. No airport or ready reserve requirement. Limitations, in some cases, on maximum duty period that protect us from the holes left for reserves by Part 117.
There may be more, but I'm really struggling to come up with much good to say. If you read my original post, that was my point. Folks almost reflexively say things like "our pay sucks, but we've got great work rules." As I said, there are a couple of good things, but in the end, not nearly enough to make up for wages that are $70-$90 per hour lower than they should be.
Thanks for info Open.
Keeping on the "hiring" thread topic... I HAVE read this thread, but appreciate more current info re QOL for a new-hire:
1. Min days off?
2. Commutability of reserve (junior line)?
3. Probability of extension into day off?
4. Other current/trending QOL considerations (other than sub-par $$$/hr) for a newbie?
5. Probability ORD will continue to be a domicile?
I live in Midwest and ORD would be first choice for domicile. Have not submitted app yet.
Current RJ Capt/LCA. ~12,000 TT.
THANKS for any/all updated info!
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