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Old 04-22-2018, 03:52 AM   #17021  
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Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER View Post
Spot on, Talon.
It is not easy to come on to this forum and debate topics because as soon as one disagrees with the few that have hijacked this forum to further the union talking points they get piled on and labeled all the while not disagreeing with the points per se but rather just tempering the hysteria.

It seems as though mudslinging is a one way affair.

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Originally Posted by dutch747 View Post
In other words.....
If you sift through Suddens rant a bit, what he is saying is that the union is engaging in a tried and true political tactic by controlling the narrative and doling out to the masses their narrow message by strictly limiting the media outlets.

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Originally Posted by suddenimpact View Post
Lets see, the Atlas Facebook page GCComms moderates and censors members posts before they are viewable along with booting off anyone identified as FPL bylaw supporter that passed by majority vote or members regularly expressing an opinion contrary to the "Kirchner Youth Program" (P2P) is told to say. Also remember to thank your leadership for using a medium (facebook) that data mines the members information and anyone in their personal contact list on their phones via messenger and etc. I believe that is at approximately 87 million victims and counting now in which our leadership said that it's Facebook fault despite it being told to them before implementing the facebook page that data mining is what facebook does for their "free" service and we are now living with the results of that decision. While no one expected exactly a Cambridge Analytical event, no one should be surprised especially when it was forewarned what was at risk.

The Atlas ExCo stops all membership posts to Atlas 1224 private web forums by removing all the moderators that approved, deleted, censored members postings. Like on facebook, all posts had to be approved first before being made viewable. At least we could fight among ourselves in our private forum without much worry about our information being mined. The Atlas ExCo and Comms guys said it was Local 1224 initiative to kill the forums but the President of the local says that they were only discussing taking down the forums to save money but had not decided on an action yet. I lean towards the ExCo stretching the truth on this, again. That is why they are still viewable on our website but our Atlas ExCo decided on their own to "control the narrative" of our group and effectively stopped the use of the Atlas web forums by removing the moderators. So no posts get approved for viewing. That is why there are currently two months of inactivity on it now. Local 1224 still has them up for all the other carriers in our local, but the Atlas ExCo wants to control what is said on theirs. While the forums were not super active with posts it had a number of lurkers. The communications committee push of members towards the facebook site did slow the forums down. The Atlas forums were a place you had a modicum of a chance to get posted due to equal use of union assets where the facebook page had none of that.

So, there are not a lot of places for our members to go if they have anything slightly different to express that doesn't follow the Kirchner Youth Movement diatribe. So you can blame those past ExCo actions on guys going to public forums.

I was toying with the idea of creating a private facebook like social media for our group. There are open source ones out there that provide about an equivalent product as facebook with web forums included.

Was thinking the moderation would be like here or used to be before 1224 finally took over communications. Posts moderated AFTER posting for compliance to terms of service and not BEFORE where you get censored, deleted, or ignored for post approval as has been going on at Atlas media.
I don't personally agree with any representative of mine to limit my voice by taking away my ability to post or voice my opinion without the fear of reprisal. That is why you will not see anyone disagree with the posters on GCComms and the last time I checked it is not 1600+ pilots that are posting, it is at best a small fraction of our total pilot group. The previous 1224 forums operational philosophy was changed EXACTLY because there were those that disagreed with the union message and they were being censored.

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Originally Posted by Talon1011 View Post
All the increasingly rancorous rhetoric on these pages aside, all one really has to do in order to gauge how things have changed for the worse at Atlas is to compare the postings of 2010 or so to those made recently. The feeling around here was considerably different then. Perhaps one day that will change again for the better. It will be quite some time, though.
It is easy to go back through this thread and take an inventory of the handful of named individuals that have ramped up the "increasingly rancorous rhetoric". It is their opinion that things at Atlas have changed for the worse and coincidentally it came at exactly the time that negotiations began. These handful of people don't speak for me or the union. They speak for themselves alone as this is an anonymous forum. So one could perhaps surmise that they are union plants furthering the union message.......or they are just lemmings and have miserable lives.

Either way, I agree that we need a much better contract and the company does need to do a better job engaging in this negotiation process. The company is stalling....as expected.
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Old 04-22-2018, 05:34 AM   #17022  
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Either way, I agree that we need a much better contract and the company does need to do a better job engaging in this negotiation process. The company is stalling....as expected.
So, we know what message the company is sending.

And we know what message the union is sending.

What exactly is your message? What are you trying to say?

To me, it sounds like: "The company is mean and nasty with all their stall tactics. And the union is mean and nasty trying to get everyone else to be mean and nasty back to the company. But I'm not mean and nasty, I'm just happy to be flying a 747."

Ok, fine. It's not all doom and gloom from your seat. But what can you hope to accomplish with that sort of "satisfaction"? If you're happy enough then nothing ever changes, and there's nothing wrong with that, per se, but a lot of other people who are working really hard to improve things might just say, "If you're happy and satisfied with the status quo, then just sit back, go to work and enjoy the improvements that come ever so slowly to the whole group."

You know, basically, lead, follow or get out of the way!
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Old 04-22-2018, 05:52 AM   #17023  
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So, we know what message the company is sending.

And we know what message the union is sending.

What exactly is your message? What are you trying to say?

To me, it sounds like: "The company is mean and nasty with all their stall tactics. And the union is mean and nasty trying to get everyone else to be mean and nasty back to the company. But I'm not mean and nasty, I'm just happy to be flying a 747."

Ok, fine. It's not all doom and gloom from your seat. But what can you hope to accomplish with that sort of "satisfaction"? If you're happy enough then nothing ever changes, and there's nothing wrong with that, per se, but a lot of other people who are working really hard to improve things might just say, "If you're happy and satisfied with the status quo, then just sit back, go to work and enjoy the improvements that come ever so slowly to the whole group."

You know, basically, lead, follow or get out of the way!
I am glad you asked. As I have indicated many times over, my goal is to communicate to prospective candidates that there are other Atlas employees out there that have the same opinion as me that will affirm that the worst case scenario of scheduling, hotel or travel snafus that have and may occur just don't happen at the rate that those here will have you believe.......in MY opinion. That is my message. Don't hate. Don't agree. Don't disagree. Whatever! And I do thank those that help....but rhetoric won't help us get there any faster than diplomacy(imo).....but if it were up to me, I'd have chosen a more diplomatic approach.

And fwiw, I DO volunteer. I call that leading. What would you say about me volunteering? ....and paying my union dues?

Lastly, we each have an OPINION of what message either the union or the company is sending.....it is a matter or one's perspective. You can't force anyone to take your opinion of the union or the company message and people should not be outcast or ostracized for having their opinion, especially as a dues paying member. In fact, I would expect that even the most bitter opponent of the union would be well represented by the union in the event that the unions support was called upon......just because that person pays their dues. (This is just a devil's advocate point of view. I don't actually believe that the union actively engages in ostracizing union members whom oppose the union message).



(I have never nor will I ever be one of those, "I'm just happy to be......." types. This is my career too and of course I want better rules, money etc. Besides, look at the avatar).

Last edited by Davetastic; 04-22-2018 at 06:10 AM.
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Old 04-22-2018, 06:53 AM   #17024  
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Originally Posted by Davetastic View Post
I am glad you asked. As I have indicated many times over, my goal is to communicate to prospective candidates that there are other Atlas employees out there that have the same opinion as me that will affirm that the worst case scenario of scheduling, hotel or travel snafus that have and may occur just don't happen at the rate that those here will have you believe.......in MY opinion. That is my message. Don't hate. Don't agree. Don't disagree. Whatever! And I do thank those that help....but rhetoric won't help us get there any faster than diplomacy(imo).....but if it were up to me, I'd have chosen a more diplomatic approach.

And fwiw, I DO volunteer. I call that leading. What would you say about me volunteering? ....and paying my union dues?

Lastly, we each have an OPINION of what message either the union or the company is sending.....it is a matter or one's perspective. You can't force anyone to take your opinion of the union or the company message and people should not be outcast or ostracized for having their opinion, especially as a dues paying member. In fact, I would expect that even the most bitter opponent of the union would be well represented by the union in the event that the unions support was called upon......just because that person pays their dues. (This is just a devil's advocate point of view. I don't actually believe that the union actively engages in ostracizing union members whom oppose the union message).



(I have never nor will I ever be one of those, "I'm just happy to be......." types. This is my career too and of course I want better rules, money etc. Besides, look at the avatar).
Got it. You're a 767 pilot. Not 747, my mistake.

So that explains why you personally haven't experienced scheduling SNAFUs like some 747 crews.

Thanks for volunteering.

And now that you've had your opportunity to speak your mind, I see that you're simply trying to convey honest information to prospective new hire. That's very generous and helpful--to the new hires.

But it's also true that our more bitter and twisted members are equally trying to help the new hires make an informed decision. A lot of people do come to Atlas--and even Southern--not knowing what they're getting themselves into. And the stubborn and bitter contract negotiations is all part of the deal.

Remember, the company is stonewalling here, not the union. That is clear as day. So while some "rhetoric" as you call it may not be very diplomatic at all, it serves a purpose. It's a glimpse into the day to day life of a majority of Atlas/Southern pilots who feel betrayed and manipulated into substandard working conditions while the rest of the industry enjoys material advancements in pay and rules.

You're entitled to your opinion, but so is everyone else who feels lied to and cheated by the executives.

Safe flights.
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Old 04-22-2018, 07:44 AM   #17025  
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Got it. You're a 767 pilot. Not 747, my mistake.

So that explains why you personally haven't experienced scheduling SNAFUs like some 747 crews.

Thanks for volunteering.

And now that you've had your opportunity to speak your mind, I see that you're simply trying to convey honest information to prospective new hire. That's very generous and helpful--to the new hires.

But it's also true that our more bitter and twisted members are equally trying to help the new hires make an informed decision. A lot of people do come to Atlas--and even Southern--not knowing what they're getting themselves into. And the stubborn and bitter contract negotiations is all part of the deal.

Remember, the company is stonewalling here, not the union. That is clear as day. So while some "rhetoric" as you call it may not be very diplomatic at all, it serves a purpose. It's a glimpse into the day to day life of a majority of Atlas/Southern pilots who feel betrayed and manipulated into substandard working conditions while the rest of the industry enjoys material advancements in pay and rules.

You're entitled to your opinion, but so is everyone else who feels lied to and cheated by the executives.

Safe flights.
To be transparent, I was on the 747 too and I STILL did not experience even a fraction of what those here are moaning about. In my opinion, the union is stonewalling as well. They are doing so to gain leverage. The company is stonewalling to reap profits. Yes, I agree, it is part of the deal. I respect those that have the opinion that they are feeling cheated but I have NEVER called anybody wrong because of it. I post here for the purpose of educating as do those that have a contrary opinion but that does NOT mean that I should be called wrong or a company man because of it. To call me wrong for my opinion I think lends credibility to my argument that those guilty of doing so are hypocritical and closed minded in their position; They are of the belief that there is only one perspective, theirs and everyone else is wrong.
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Old 04-22-2018, 01:12 PM   #17026  
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Thanks Davetastic,

You seemed to have sorted out my earlier message very well.

Pro or Con thanks!


All, don't consider me a company stooge because I don't tow our current leadership's every word as gospel. I have more time as a union volunteer than many of our ExCo members have been pilots. I have volunteered myself for risky actions for the union more times than I can count and I have seen a number of mis-truths said by a few of our current leadership to our own that I have not seen by past administrations. I can live with that if they were dealing solely with the company because the company does the same to us, but they forget we are the membership and should not be treated as such. Often times making our own cannon fodder by what they say. Ripe for the taking as hostages (collateral damage) during these negotiations as they seek leverage.

I would much prefer to use our own private forums, the Atlas ExCo now has made that impossible leaving the unofficial union facebook page as the only way to communicate which actively censors, deletes or bans without true cause or under any set rules.

Keep that in mind on the next crew call or GMM. If it sounds janky, it probably is.

Fly the CBA

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Old 04-26-2018, 06:18 AM   #17027  
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A Brief Recap of Atlas Negotiating History

Fellow Atlas Crew Members,

With so many new Atlas crew members, I receive regular inquiries about the lengthy labor history at Atlas and how we got to where we are today. Sadly, there is nothing new to the position Atlas management has historically taken. In this message, I will attempt to cover our 19-year negotiating history as briefly as possible and still give you an accurate perspective of what management is attempting to perpetrate on our pilot group and families, yet again.

In late 1999, Polar Air Cargo achieved its first union CBA under ALPA with a priority put on work rules and quality of life provisions, rather than compensation.

In 2001, Atlas Air purchased Polar Air Cargo from General Electric and thus began a somewhat disjointed merger and acquisition process. Although Atlas had purchased Polar, its leadership did not know exactly how to integrate Polar. Throughout the initial years of being under the same management structure relations grew strained – not only between the Polar MEC and Atlas MEC, but also between the Polar MEC and Atlas management in Purchase, NY. Atlas management worked constantly to leverage the pilots, pitting both groups against each other. While this worked well for management, it was to the detriment of the pilots. Polar’s CBA became amendable in 2002 and after three years of manipulating the pilot group and stonewalling at the negotiating table, the Polar pilots chose to strike in 2005. The successful 20-day strike, came to a close only when both the Atlas and Polar pilot groups finally started working together. Unfortunately, this strike was followed by a weak back-to-work agreement, reached in part due to an APLA representative’s mistaken assumption that the company would follow through in good faith if the pilots extended some good will in entering a critical post-strike negotiation. This included prematurely taking down the Polar picket, which gave away precious union leverage before ever beginning negotiations. The results were predictable. In essence, after a 20-day pilot strike, the resulting negotiation yielded little if anything more than what the company had offered before the strike. The Polar pilots came away with very modest raises and not much more.

In 2002, the Atlas pilots achieved their first union CBA. It provided better compensation than the Polar contract, but it contained some inferior work rules and quality of life provisions. Both CBAs were fashioned from an ALPA first contract blueprint. They were very basic and trailed behind the rest of the industry.

In 2004, before the Polar strike, Atlas and Polar had been thrust into bankruptcy after years of upper management officials’ excessive management compensation and a long history of loading up the company with massive debt, mostly attributed to aircraft acquisitions (sound familiar?). Both Atlas and Polar managed to come out of bankruptcy that same year after erasing over $900 million dollars off the balance sheet, a sizable amount for an airline with only 46 aircraft.

Along the way, the Atlas pilots were also able to negotiate modest raises, but nothing remotely close to any industry standard. Atlas and Polar pilots could not get on the same page and thus continued to play into the company’s hands. In 2008, after years of frustration and movement towards a joint CBA, a movement was started by the Atlas pilots to seek representation with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT). ALPA had come out with policies and opinions against the ACMI business as a whole; a business model that Atlas was and is still built upon. The move was successful and in late 2008, the Atlas and Polar pilots left ALPA and became part of the Teamsters. Before both pilot groups left ALPA, the merged seniority list was delivered to Atlas management thus triggering the amalgamation process and an arbitrated CBA.

Management initially offered a “dual track” expedited system and promised a CBA in nine months, further indicating that management would not hold an arbitrator to the “amalgamation standard” (sound familiar?). The Atlas and Polar pilots sat down at the table in good faith, expecting management to honor its promises to expeditiously negotiate a new joint CBA. Atlas management, of course, did nothing of the kind. The promised nine-month process took close to two years. Under oath, in the arbitration process, we learned that Atlas intentionally delayed the CBA for over a year at the apparent behest of DHL. In the resulting arbitration, virtually the first words out of the company’s high priced “Hollywood” lawyer was an admonition that the arbitrator did not have the authority to go outside the parameters of the Atlas and Polar CBAs thus triggering the “amalgamation standard”. Finally, in September of 2011, an amalgamated five-year CBA was produced.

Even though the merger of the two airlines never occurred, and to this very day, as everyone can all plainly see, Atlas and Polar have never been merged. Atlas management benefited from the misapplication of the provisions of both CBAs in order to take advantage of the merger provisions at the table and yet never actually merged the airlines as promised. This manipulated process produced a combined CBA based on a template of two first-time contracts. The combined Atlas/Polar CBA is now woefully behind the rest of industry. While everyone was relieved that the process was finally over, all understood that management had distorted a provision in the scope language of both CBAs to keep pilot work rules and pay well below industry standard. In fact our present CEO “crowed” to analysts and investors after the CBA was signed that the effective expense increase for the pilot workforce was only around seven percent. Through this manipulated and distorted process, the Atlas and Polar pilots were deprived of a ratification vote by the amalgamation process. To date, for the legacy Atlas and Polar pilot groups respectively, 16 and 18 years have elapsed since any pilot has voted or been able to ratify a true negotiated CBA here at Atlas. If management gets its way through the courts and the current attempted arbitration process, it will again deny all of us another opportunity to vote on our future and ratify a CBA, possibly for the next decade or more.

All of the above leads us to our current negotiations, in which this same management group is holding out on all of the major provisions of the CBA for (wait for it)…an AMALGAMATION. Management’s tactics and playbook are exactly the same as last time, as are the promises and assurances. All the while, the same catastrophic damage is being inflicted on our pilot group and our families. Of course the executives couldn’t care less, as they continue to line their pockets with the highest salaries in the airline industry, lavish bonuses and obscene perks. All this, while saddling the company with an increasingly unmanageable debt and passing on desirable lucrative contracts.

Many of you ask, “Why do we still sit and negotiate with a group that engages in such bad faith and has such a long history of doing so?” The answer is simple, we are bound by the Railway Labor Act (RLA) to negotiate in good faith and we are committed on our side to bargain in good faith, as will be evident to the NMB or an arbitrator if that is the path we are forced to travel.

The current Framework Agreement extension ends June 1, 2018, so we will see what happens after that. For now, it appears certain that the company is dragging this process out just so they can get to the well one more time to enjoy yet another misapplication of the current CBA merger provisions.

As we move forward, we have something labor rarely has in dealing with any management group. We have a long and sordid management track record on which to rely. When this management group makes promises and assertions, they have one big problem; their track record precedes and betrays them. As discussed, it is a negotiating history based upon broken promises, reneging on deals and commitments. It is one of telling crew members only half of the story, misusing and manipulating language in the CBA (like in the recent strike language arbitration, when management’s history was totally exposed and justifiably denied by the arbitrator) and the list goes on. I can assure you we will NEVER again fall for such false promises, half-baked truths and deals on which management can renege. In short, we maintain the advantage of having “seen this movie before”.

I know the process to achieve a new CBA is long and arduous; the last one took 6-8 years, depending on whether you were Atlas or Polar. This one will not take as long, as Atlas cannot survive it. Already past the point of no return, even the most optimistic of business viewpoints, it will take years if not an entire decade for this company to recover from this current management-imposed fiasco. Indeed, there are now only a very few “executive level” managers who believe in the current company strategy or who haven't buried their heads in the sand as Atlas and Southern continue to wither. It is now clear that the executive suite has lost not only the confidence of the Atlas and Southern pilots, but most of the airline’s employees and middle management as well. Parked aircraft, large amounts of open time, cancelled flights and angry customers do not lead anyone, except the very top few that Atlas is in anything other than steep decline. Hiding the pilot shortage and pilot retention problems behind false maintenance listings is all part of this desperate management’s scheme to hide the real disaster they have brought upon themselves.

The fastest and best way to get a new CBA remains through direct, good faith negotiations. It is the only thing that can save Atlas from further irreparable harm. It is also the way to the industry-standard CBA we all deserve. The more unity, resolve, and contract compliance we maintain, the faster we will get a new CBA. There are several picketing events coming up in May and June, so come out and participate in force like the recent CVG event to show our solidarity.

We are a strong, cohesive pilot group and for that teamwork I am convinced we will ALL be rewarded.

As usual, I thank all of you for your support. We will prevail and break the string of amalgamated, inferior, bottom level CBAs that this pilot group has had inflicted upon it for so many years.

Remember, always be “ALL-IN”.

Fraternally,

Bob K.
Atlas Executive Council Chairman
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Old 04-30-2018, 01:49 AM   #17028  
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Knox,

You may have violated in part or whole the social media policy of Local 1224. If your step daddy leader didn't tell you to do this, you might want to think a little bit ahead of time before publishing releases to the membership in public. Guess that makes you a leaker but hay, your leadership with no boundaries or rules considering current history.

The Atlas/Polar history is pretty well documented on these pages or pprune.org. Our current leaderships recreation of events match in certain spots but not in whole since he was on the side to log jamming everything to going nowhere causing a decertification. Of course, he has only to play up to the new majority of members including yourself that didn't experience any of the past pain we endured and have only his word as to why.

While I hate watching those getting richer on the company side and the union leadership side during these prolonged negotiations with a certain set of cards dealt to them, it is apparent everyone else suffers.

What is the break over point? When the negotiators make enough or the membership gets to at least even?

I'm pro union!!! Just tired of being used after listening to the BS on both sides.
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:12 AM   #17029  
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Knox,

You may have violated in part or whole the social media policy of Local 1224. If your step daddy leader didn't tell you to do this, you might want to think a little bit ahead of time before publishing releases to the membership in public. Guess that makes you a leaker but hay, your leadership with no boundaries or rules considering current history.

The Atlas/Polar history is pretty well documented on these pages or pprune.org. Our current leaderships recreation of events match in certain spots but not in whole since he was on the side to log jamming everything to going nowhere causing a decertification. Of course, he has only to play up to the new majority of members including yourself that didn't experience any of the past pain we endured and have only his word as to why.

While I hate watching those getting richer on the company side and the union leadership side during these prolonged negotiations with a certain set of cards dealt to them, it is apparent everyone else suffers.

What is the break over point? When the negotiators make enough or the membership gets to at least even?

I'm pro union!!! Just tired of being used after listening to the BS on both sides.
Holman:

Do you really want to start this AGAIN?
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:50 AM   #17030  
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I'm pro union!!!
That is ..."pro union" ... busy stabbing union leaders in the back!
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