jamesholzhauer

How many have ever actually been paid out?

jtrain609

There was the time American's union had $48 million in the bank, and a judge fined them $45 million.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pilots-union-fined-45m/

Or the injunction against United ALPA because United ALPA told pilots to fly the contract and not pick up open time:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2008/11/18/us-court-issues-injunction-aga

Anyone who ignores a judge's order does so at their peril.

jamesholzhauer

You just proved my point...which is why I worded it as I did. AAs union never paid out if I recall correctly. And no one was forced to pick up on their day off due to that injunction at United. The judge can say you have to pick up consistent with historical levels, and the union has to echo that to comply, but at the individual level members cannot be forced to pick up flying on their days off. It just can’t happen. There is no bite with that bark. That’s where being a professional union pilot comes in...you have to know the game, and the union can officially only say so much. Jetblue pilots walk in to a chess tournament with their checkers pieces though.

When you talk about lawsuits, they sound big and scary, but there aren’t really any teeth to them. Which is my whole point. It’s another lever to pull in management’s quest to minimize labor costs and maximize productivity, which JB management does well since the pilot group makes it so easy for them. Honest question...are you management? Do you work for F&H?

likeitis

If you look further you will see that APA had to negotiate the fine to the company through concessions at the bargaining table. So yes they paid with a contract that paid out less then they were hoping to receive.

Hellafo

Would you leave B6 for UPS?
Pros vs Cons?
Asking for a friend

jamesholzhauer

It’s debatable (at best) that the contract they got was hindered by that ruling. They still had to vote on it. Don’t think there were many pilots who said “well this TA sucks, but since we got sued, I’ll vote yes.” Just like a judge can tell the union they have to tell members to pick up open time consistent with historical numbers, the judge can say they have to negotiate factoring in the judgment. But that doesn’t change what TA/CBA is acceptable to membership.

Toonces

I wouldn’t. But that’s because JB fits better with my lifestyle. I wouldn’t mind getting a UPS paycheck. What do you want out of your career?


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likeitis

Not really debatable when I’m telling you exactly what was told me by a member of APA leadership (now retired) just after ratification. Sure the membership could have voted against it but that also brings no guarantees. At the time the fine was levied it was either negotiate it away or pay it. Not sure leaving $3 million in the bank for a buffer for a union that size would be wise.

jtrain609

The American fine was upheld.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2001/02/27/pilots-455-million-fine-upheld/850cef8a-6c02-4179-b427-f2309e95bacc/?noredirect=on

Southerner

Listen to what some of you are saying...to paraphrase:

"I know that what I want to do is illegal, but I don't care because I don't think there will be consequences."

Then you'll turn around 5 minutes later and complain that the company violates the CBA because they don't think there will be consequences.

Either principles matter, or they don't. If they don't matter to you, then stop complaining about the company pushing the limits of the CBA. Be consistent.