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Old 08-22-2019, 05:09 AM
  #8271  
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Originally Posted by rvr1800
Millions of our dues money
How many have ever actually been paid out?
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Old 08-22-2019, 06:58 AM
  #8272  
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Originally Posted by jamesholzhauer
How many have ever actually been paid out?
There was the time American's union had $48 million in the bank, and a judge fined them $45 million.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pilots-union-fined-45m/

Or the injunction against United ALPA because United ALPA told pilots to fly the contract and not pick up open time:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2008/11/18/us-court-issues-injunction-aga

Anyone who ignores a judge's order does so at their peril.
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Old 08-22-2019, 07:20 AM
  #8273  
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Originally Posted by jtrain609
There was the time American's union had $48 million in the bank, and a judge fined them $45 million.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pilots-union-fined-45m/

Or the injunction against United ALPA because United ALPA told pilots to fly the contract and not pick up open time:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2008/11/18/us-court-issues-injunction-aga

Anyone who ignores a judge's order does so at their peril.
You just proved my point...which is why I worded it as I did. AAs union never paid out if I recall correctly. And no one was forced to pick up on their day off due to that injunction at United. The judge can say you have to pick up consistent with historical levels, and the union has to echo that to comply, but at the individual level members cannot be forced to pick up flying on their days off. It just canít happen. There is no bite with that bark. Thatís where being a professional union pilot comes in...you have to know the game, and the union can officially only say so much. Jetblue pilots walk in to a chess tournament with their checkers pieces though.

When you talk about lawsuits, they sound big and scary, but there arenít really any teeth to them. Which is my whole point. Itís another lever to pull in managementís quest to minimize labor costs and maximize productivity, which JB management does well since the pilot group makes it so easy for them. Honest question...are you management? Do you work for F&H?
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:02 AM
  #8274  
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Originally Posted by jamesholzhauer
You just proved my point...which is why I worded it as I did. AAs union never paid out if I recall correctly. And no one was forced to pick up on their day off due to that injunction at United. The judge can say you have to pick up consistent with historical levels, and the union has to echo that to comply, but at the individual level members cannot be forced to pick up flying on their days off. It just canít happen. There is no bite with that bark. Thatís where being a professional union pilot comes in...you have to know the game, and the union can officially only say so much. Jetblue pilots walk in to a chess tournament with their checkers pieces though.

When you talk about lawsuits, they sound big and scary, but there arenít really any teeth to them. Which is my whole point. Itís another lever to pull in managementís quest to minimize labor costs and maximize productivity, which JB management does well since the pilot group makes it so easy for them. Honest question...are you management? Do you work for F&H?
If you look further you will see that APA had to negotiate the fine to the company through concessions at the bargaining table. So yes they paid with a contract that paid out less then they were hoping to receive.
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:06 AM
  #8275  
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Default Would you?

Would you leave B6 for UPS?
Pros vs Cons?
Asking for a friend
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:07 AM
  #8276  
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Originally Posted by likeitis
If you look further you will see that APA had to negotiate the fine to the company through concessions at the bargaining table. So yes they paid with a contract that paid out less then they were hoping to receive.
Itís debatable (at best) that the contract they got was hindered by that ruling. They still had to vote on it. Donít think there were many pilots who said ďwell this TA sucks, but since we got sued, Iíll vote yes.Ē Just like a judge can tell the union they have to tell members to pick up open time consistent with historical numbers, the judge can say they have to negotiate factoring in the judgment. But that doesnít change what TA/CBA is acceptable to membership.
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:30 AM
  #8277  
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Originally Posted by Hellafo
Would you leave B6 for UPS?

Pros vs Cons?

Asking for a friend

I wouldnít. But thatís because JB fits better with my lifestyle. I wouldnít mind getting a UPS paycheck. What do you want out of your career?


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Old 08-22-2019, 08:53 AM
  #8278  
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Originally Posted by jamesholzhauer
Itís debatable (at best) that the contract they got was hindered by that ruling. They still had to vote on it. Donít think there were many pilots who said ďwell this TA sucks, but since we got sued, Iíll vote yes.Ē Just like a judge can tell the union they have to tell members to pick up open time consistent with historical numbers, the judge can say they have to negotiate factoring in the judgment. But that doesnít change what TA/CBA is acceptable to membership.
Not really debatable when Iím telling you exactly what was told me by a member of APA leadership (now retired) just after ratification. Sure the membership could have voted against it but that also brings no guarantees. At the time the fine was levied it was either negotiate it away or pay it. Not sure leaving $3 million in the bank for a buffer for a union that size would be wise.
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:00 AM
  #8279  
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Originally Posted by jamesholzhauer
You just proved my point...which is why I worded it as I did. AAs union never paid out if I recall correctly. And no one was forced to pick up on their day off due to that injunction at United. The judge can say you have to pick up consistent with historical levels, and the union has to echo that to comply, but at the individual level members cannot be forced to pick up flying on their days off. It just canít happen. There is no bite with that bark. Thatís where being a professional union pilot comes in...you have to know the game, and the union can officially only say so much. Jetblue pilots walk in to a chess tournament with their checkers pieces though.

When you talk about lawsuits, they sound big and scary, but there arenít really any teeth to them. Which is my whole point. Itís another lever to pull in managementís quest to minimize labor costs and maximize productivity, which JB management does well since the pilot group makes it so easy for them. Honest question...are you management? Do you work for F&H?
The American fine was upheld.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2001/02/27/pilots-455-million-fine-upheld/850cef8a-6c02-4179-b427-f2309e95bacc/?noredirect=on
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:23 AM
  #8280  
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Listen to what some of you are saying...to paraphrase:

"I know that what I want to do is illegal, but I don't care because I don't think there will be consequences."

Then you'll turn around 5 minutes later and complain that the company violates the CBA because they don't think there will be consequences.

Either principles matter, or they don't. If they don't matter to you, then stop complaining about the company pushing the limits of the CBA. Be consistent.
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