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Old 08-22-2019, 09:23 AM
  #8281  
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Originally Posted by jtrain609 View Post
The American fine was upheld.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2001/02/27/pilots-455-million-fine-upheld/850cef8a-6c02-4179-b427-f2309e95bacc/?noredirect=on
They. Never. Paid. It. I used my words earlier ďpaid outĒ carefully. Just because it was upheld doesnít mean it was paid.

The fine went away in the subsequent negotiations. Whether or not it affected the CBA is debatable (despite likeitis saying otherwise). Thereís a lot more than that fine that went into that round of negotiations.

And hereís the bigger point since you guys are missing the forest for the trees. There have been a LOT more unofficial alleged work actions that havenít faced (or lost with any consequence) any lawsuits (recent example something like SPA chokers website). The example you brought up was a VERY egregious work action...it wasnít a matter of people not picking up open time on their days off...it was a coordinated sick out.

Iím not advocating any illegal work actions now or in the future. In fact I discouraged them during our negotiations in my conversations with people about the subject. But Iím also not going to spread FUD, or allow FUD to be spread by guys like you, uncontested. If guys get tired of being abused day after day, and they happen to be in a labor dispute, and they donít want to pick up trips anymore when historically they have...there is no judge in the world who can make them change their mind and go to work on a day off. But you keep spreading fear about stuff like that.

So are you management? Do you work for F&H?
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:29 AM
  #8282  
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Originally Posted by Southerner View Post
Listen to what some of you are saying...to paraphrase:

"I know that what I want to do is illegal, but I don't care because I don't think there will be consequences."

Then you'll turn around 5 minutes later and complain that the company violates the CBA because they don't think there will be consequences.

Either principles matter, or they don't. If they don't matter to you, then stop complaining about the company pushing the limits of the CBA. Be consistent.
Pushing the limits of the CBA? You serious Clark? What the company did was a clear violation of the mutually agreed upon CBA. Deciding not to work on days off is NOT a violation of the CBA or the law. Itís a personal choice. If coordinated it can be illegal. But Iím not advocating for that (I havenít really advocated for anything, just shooting holes in these FUD campaigns). Youíre comparing apples to oranges to fit your pro-company, anti-pilot narrative that you normally have. Shocker.
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:38 AM
  #8283  
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Originally Posted by jamesholzhauer View Post
Pushing the limits of the CBA? You serious Clark? What the company did was a clear violation of the mutually agreed upon CBA. Deciding not to work on days off is NOT a violation of the CBA or the law. Itís a personal choice. If coordinated it can be illegal. But Iím not advocating for that (I havenít really advocated for anything, just shooting holes in these FUD campaigns). Youíre comparing apples to oranges to fit your pro-company, anti-pilot narrative that you normally have. Shocker.
An individual deciding to not work on a day off isn't illegal. People on web boards giving people crap for signing up for VDAs, and attempting to drive behavior is. It's fairly simple. Sure, it's a mild illegal job action, but it's still technically illegal.

I'm not excusing the company's behavior with regard to the CBA. If I were in charge, I would demand the same level of respect that I expect from my peers. I just think it's interesting that people defend/encourage violations if it's in their interest, and scream bloody murder if it's the company working against them.

Principles shouldn't change depending upon the individual's point of view.
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:41 AM
  #8284  
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Originally Posted by jamesholzhauer View Post
They. Never. Paid. It. I used my words earlier ďpaid outĒ carefully. Just because it was upheld doesnít mean it was paid.

The fine went away in the subsequent negotiations. Whether or not it affected the CBA is debatable (despite likeitis saying otherwise). Thereís a lot more than that fine that went into that round of negotiations.

And hereís the bigger point since you guys are missing the forest for the trees. There have been a LOT more unofficial alleged work actions that havenít faced (or lost with any consequence) any lawsuits (recent example something like SPA chokers website). The example you brought up was a VERY egregious work action...it wasnít a matter of people not picking up open time on their days off...it was a coordinated sick out.

Iím not advocating any illegal work actions now or in the future. In fact I discouraged them during our negotiations in my conversations with people about the subject. But Iím also not going to spread FUD, or allow FUD to be spread by guys like you, uncontested. If guys get tired of being abused day after day, and they happen to be in a labor dispute, and they donít want to pick up trips anymore when historically they have...there is no judge in the world who can make them change their mind and go to work on a day off. But you keep spreading fear about stuff like that.

So are you management? Do you work for F&H?
There are lots of ways to pay, but one way or another, the pilots of American paid. Nothing in life is free.

No, not management. Also don't work for F&H.
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Old 08-22-2019, 12:24 PM
  #8285  
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Originally Posted by Southerner View Post
That's actually not true. No evidence of coordination is required. All that is needed is a clear and definitive change in the data pattern.

BUT

There are enough posts on here, BluePilots, and The Potato Farm to easily demonstrate coordination, even though that isn't required to lose the lawsuit. Companies win these lawsuits. Handily. Because web boards and data.
I do not agree. Without any substantiating evidence, there is no way to prove the change in data is directly a result of union action. Nothing happens in a vacuum, and no individual can be forced to work overtime simply because they have worked overtime in the past.

Last edited by Bluedriver; 08-22-2019 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 08-22-2019, 12:44 PM
  #8286  
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Originally Posted by jamesholzhauer View Post
They. Never. Paid. It. I used my words earlier ďpaid outĒ carefully. Just because it was upheld doesnít mean it was paid.

The fine went away in the subsequent negotiations. Whether or not it affected the CBA is debatable (despite likeitis saying otherwise). Thereís a lot more than that fine that went into that round of negotiations.

And hereís the bigger point since you guys are missing the forest for the trees. There have been a LOT more unofficial alleged work actions that havenít faced (or lost with any consequence) any lawsuits (recent example something like SPA chokers website). The example you brought up was a VERY egregious work action...it wasnít a matter of people not picking up open time on their days off...it was a coordinated sick out.

Iím not advocating any illegal work actions now or in the future. In fact I discouraged them during our negotiations in my conversations with people about the subject. But Iím also not going to spread FUD, or allow FUD to be spread by guys like you, uncontested. If guys get tired of being abused day after day, and they happen to be in a labor dispute, and they donít want to pick up trips anymore when historically they have...there is no judge in the world who can make them change their mind and go to work on a day off. But you keep spreading fear about stuff like that.

So are you management? Do you work for F&H?
Agreed......
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Old 08-22-2019, 04:10 PM
  #8287  
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Originally Posted by Bluedriver View Post
I do not agree. Without any substantiating evidence, there is no way to prove the change in data is directly a result of union action. Nothing happens in a vacuum, and no individual can be forced to work overtime simply because they have worked overtime in the past.

Hopefully we never get any clear and objective evidence of how wrong you are. The courts have cited these exact types of message boards in previous cases.
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Old 08-22-2019, 04:35 PM
  #8288  
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Injunctive relief is overrated.

Itís a process that involves a number of steps.

There is no SLAM you are fined.
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Old 08-22-2019, 04:49 PM
  #8289  
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Originally Posted by Southerner View Post
Hopefully we never get any clear and objective evidence of how wrong you are. The courts have cited these exact types of message boards in previous cases.
Exactly! That's called EVIDENCE of coordination.

The data, by itself, is NOT enough.

And, there is ALWAYS message board bravado, yet there is almost never a lawsuit. There is almost always a reduction in overtime picked up by union employees during a Labor Dispute, yet there is almost never a lawsuit.

A lawsuit is by FAR the minority, not the norm.
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Old 08-23-2019, 04:27 AM
  #8290  
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Originally Posted by Bluedriver View Post
Exactly! That's called EVIDENCE of coordination.

The data, by itself, is NOT enough.

And, there is ALWAYS message board bravado, yet there is almost never a lawsuit. There is almost always a reduction in overtime picked up by union employees during a Labor Dispute, yet there is almost never a lawsuit.

A lawsuit is by FAR the minority, not the norm.
As usual, you are missing the point.
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