TA
06-19-2022 | 07:32 AM
#191
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Yep. Prior to recent developments it just wouldn’t make enough sense to lateral… the modest pay differences would have been offset by seniority, etc. At this point I can see very few reasons people would stay here - likely very personal and specific situations like being just short of 1,000 121 time, etc.
I’m betting a lot of the guys who think they are stuck at mesa are no longer actually stuck at mesa. I’m with you, get those apps in. Don’t even have to interview at Envoy so there’s nothing to lose… just fill out an addendum on airline apps and get out.
06-19-2022 | 08:18 AM
#192
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
All fair points.
Up until Covid there were a million reasons why it would be “impossible” to work from home. Suddenly, all that changed and the powers that be couldn’t say impossible anymore, or they’d have to shut the doors. Isn’t it crazy how magical changes like that suddenly happen when the folks at the top are looking at losing everything?
It’s no secret that JO’s not going hungry through any of this. So let’s see him earn that nice compensation package. The fee for departure model means when there’s a sea change we pilots shouldn’t be the ones at the negotiating table, JO should. And how can he negotiate with United if this TA passes? That just proves that the market is working and we’re getting paid enough.
Now if it comes back a resounding no, it’s clear to the money printers at UA that something is going to have to give, or mesa will be no more and that’s bad for business. Voting no gives our management the tools they need to say ‘we have to pay our pilots more but we can’t afford to.’ Voting yes (and I get the selfish reasons because I could really use the scratch right now) is the worst thing we could possibly do for everyone involved. The payout will be small and short-lived, but the impact will be outsized and long-lasting.
Much like an overpriced car at a dealership with a manager who won’t negotiate, your only choice is to let them see you walk. You’re going to get them talking real numbers. And if they don’t come running after you because there’s truly no room in the deal, you don’t want that car anyway.
I get Mesa is some people’s last and best chance but at the end of the day I truly believe this is a bad deal. And by bad deal I don’t just mean not enough money, I mean It’s a bad deal in the sense that there is more money and better options out there if we hold the line and send a strong message that this kind of contract won’t fly here anymore. Just my perspective, appreciate yours too.
Up until Covid there were a million reasons why it would be “impossible” to work from home. Suddenly, all that changed and the powers that be couldn’t say impossible anymore, or they’d have to shut the doors. Isn’t it crazy how magical changes like that suddenly happen when the folks at the top are looking at losing everything?
It’s no secret that JO’s not going hungry through any of this. So let’s see him earn that nice compensation package. The fee for departure model means when there’s a sea change we pilots shouldn’t be the ones at the negotiating table, JO should. And how can he negotiate with United if this TA passes? That just proves that the market is working and we’re getting paid enough.
Now if it comes back a resounding no, it’s clear to the money printers at UA that something is going to have to give, or mesa will be no more and that’s bad for business. Voting no gives our management the tools they need to say ‘we have to pay our pilots more but we can’t afford to.’ Voting yes (and I get the selfish reasons because I could really use the scratch right now) is the worst thing we could possibly do for everyone involved. The payout will be small and short-lived, but the impact will be outsized and long-lasting.
Much like an overpriced car at a dealership with a manager who won’t negotiate, your only choice is to let them see you walk. You’re going to get them talking real numbers. And if they don’t come running after you because there’s truly no room in the deal, you don’t want that car anyway.
I get Mesa is some people’s last and best chance but at the end of the day I truly believe this is a bad deal. And by bad deal I don’t just mean not enough money, I mean It’s a bad deal in the sense that there is more money and better options out there if we hold the line and send a strong message that this kind of contract won’t fly here anymore. Just my perspective, appreciate yours too.
06-19-2022 | 08:22 AM
#193
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 916
Likes: 6
So convince me. Votes are not in stone. They can be changed. Tell me the benefits of a no vote. What do you expect to happen with a no vote and why. I’ve told you my selfish reasons for a yes vote - we lose money on any delay, coming recession, mesa cannot offer more dollars without getting them from one or more if their customers and that can’t happen fast enough. I think people have a misconception about just what Mesa is and fee for departure in general. Right or wrong the culture is up and out. It’s a company that provides bodies. It’s goal is to be the absolute cheapest for its customers. Absolute cheapest. Read that again. Since the only expense is the bodies then that expense has to be kept low. They will not increase our pay beyond the bottom. Our goal is to get to the top of the bottom. I think we are CLOSE ENOUGH that any more we can eeek out will just be a net loss because of the delay to get it. Convince me I’m wrong.
Again, not trying to swing anyone's vote here.
06-19-2022 | 09:14 AM
#194
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 4,083
Likes: 0
From: CRJ9 CA
All fair points.
Up until Covid there were a million reasons why it would be “impossible” to work from home. Suddenly, all that changed and the powers that be couldn’t say impossible anymore, or they’d have to shut the doors. Isn’t it crazy how magical changes like that suddenly happen when the folks at the top are looking at losing everything?
It’s no secret that JO’s not going hungry through any of this. So let’s see him earn that nice compensation package. The fee for departure model means when there’s a sea change we pilots shouldn’t be the ones at the negotiating table, JO should. And how can he negotiate with United if this TA passes? That just proves that the market is working and we’re getting paid enough.
Now if it comes back a resounding no, it’s clear to the money printers at UA that something is going to have to give, or mesa will be no more and that’s bad for business. Voting no gives our management the tools they need to say ‘we have to pay our pilots more but we can’t afford to.’ Voting yes (and I get the selfish reasons because I could really use the scratch right now) is the worst thing we could possibly do for everyone involved. The payout will be small and short-lived, but the impact will be outsized and long-lasting.
Much like an overpriced car at a dealership with a manager who won’t negotiate, your only choice is to let them see you walk. You’re going to get them talking real numbers. And if they don’t come running after you because there’s truly no room in the deal, you don’t want that car anyway.
I get Mesa is some people’s last and best chance but at the end of the day I truly believe this is a bad deal. And by bad deal I don’t just mean not enough money, I mean It’s a bad deal in the sense that there is more money and better options out there if we hold the line and send a strong message that this kind of contract won’t fly here anymore. Just my perspective, appreciate yours too.
Up until Covid there were a million reasons why it would be “impossible” to work from home. Suddenly, all that changed and the powers that be couldn’t say impossible anymore, or they’d have to shut the doors. Isn’t it crazy how magical changes like that suddenly happen when the folks at the top are looking at losing everything?
It’s no secret that JO’s not going hungry through any of this. So let’s see him earn that nice compensation package. The fee for departure model means when there’s a sea change we pilots shouldn’t be the ones at the negotiating table, JO should. And how can he negotiate with United if this TA passes? That just proves that the market is working and we’re getting paid enough.
Now if it comes back a resounding no, it’s clear to the money printers at UA that something is going to have to give, or mesa will be no more and that’s bad for business. Voting no gives our management the tools they need to say ‘we have to pay our pilots more but we can’t afford to.’ Voting yes (and I get the selfish reasons because I could really use the scratch right now) is the worst thing we could possibly do for everyone involved. The payout will be small and short-lived, but the impact will be outsized and long-lasting.
Much like an overpriced car at a dealership with a manager who won’t negotiate, your only choice is to let them see you walk. You’re going to get them talking real numbers. And if they don’t come running after you because there’s truly no room in the deal, you don’t want that car anyway.
I get Mesa is some people’s last and best chance but at the end of the day I truly believe this is a bad deal. And by bad deal I don’t just mean not enough money, I mean It’s a bad deal in the sense that there is more money and better options out there if we hold the line and send a strong message that this kind of contract won’t fly here anymore. Just my perspective, appreciate yours too.
I agree with you points to a point. Timing is the issue. When the co approached the pilots with a rate they had gone to their daddy’s to get the money already. When the association countered they went back to their daddy’s. Daddy have more but still Mesa has to foot some of the bill. There’s things that daddy won’t buy. (Health care, 401K etc). So if we go back with a no Jo has to go back to daddy. What kinda makes me have a little sympathy is that AA screwed him. They knew this was coming. It screws Mesa bit it screws United and Delta more.
Gazing into my crystal ball - AA has all but eliminated the financial advantage of the regional model. Except for OO YV and YX - there’s no longer a “discount” running FFD. They can absorb the WO or spin then off in bankruptcy to fail because they are just too expensive. It screws UA and Delta out of regional feed. OO YV and YX can’t charge UA and Delta more till contracts come up. A recession hits and the jig is up.
With this in mind - UA isn’t going to want to pay more because AA did what they did with all bets hedged. Temp rates, contracts locked in to 2029.
So it’s a waiting game. One I can’t AFFORD to play. I don’t think Mesa Will get that much more from their daddy’s than a Pat on the head so I want to take the money and run and hope mesa lasts till I ride off into the sunset in a few years.
You can champion doing the right thing for the industry and pilots to come but in the end let’s face it our own personal self Interest comes first. I want to take the money now not later because the amount we can get later won’t be enough soon enough to make it worthwhile.
In recap mesa ALREADY got the promise of money from their daddy’s. I think daddy is done. I’ll take the money. The airline may fold with a yes or no vote. I think a no vote will accelerate the failure and we will NEVER see any more money here. A yes and we get something. Something is better than nothing.
06-19-2022 | 09:31 AM
#195
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
I agree with you points to a point. Timing is the issue. When the co approached the pilots with a rate they had gone to their daddy’s to get the money already. When the association countered they went back to their daddy’s. Daddy have more but still Mesa has to foot some of the bill. There’s things that daddy won’t buy. (Health care, 401K etc). So if we go back with a no Jo has to go back to daddy. What kinda makes me have a little sympathy is that AA screwed him. They knew this was coming. It screws Mesa bit it screws United and Delta more.
Gazing into my crystal ball - AA has all but eliminated the financial advantage of the regional model. Except for OO YV and YX - there’s no longer a “discount” running FFD. They can absorb the WO or spin then off in bankruptcy to fail because they are just too expensive. It screws UA and Delta out of regional feed. OO YV and YX can’t charge UA and Delta more till contracts come up. A recession hits and the jig is up.
With this in mind - UA isn’t going to want to pay more because AA did what they did with all bets hedged. Temp rates, contracts locked in to 2029.
So it’s a waiting game. One I can’t AFFORD to play. I don’t think Mesa Will get that much more from their daddy’s than a Pat on the head so I want to take the money and run and hope mesa lasts till I ride off into the sunset in a few years.
You can champion doing the right thing for the industry and pilots to come but in the end let’s face it our own personal self Interest comes first. I want to take the money now not later because the amount we can get later won’t be enough soon enough to make it worthwhile.
In recap mesa ALREADY got the promise of money from their daddy’s. I think daddy is done. I’ll take the money. The airline may fold with a yes or no vote. I think a no vote will accelerate the failure and we will NEVER see any more money here. A yes and we get something. Something is better than nothing.
Gazing into my crystal ball - AA has all but eliminated the financial advantage of the regional model. Except for OO YV and YX - there’s no longer a “discount” running FFD. They can absorb the WO or spin then off in bankruptcy to fail because they are just too expensive. It screws UA and Delta out of regional feed. OO YV and YX can’t charge UA and Delta more till contracts come up. A recession hits and the jig is up.
With this in mind - UA isn’t going to want to pay more because AA did what they did with all bets hedged. Temp rates, contracts locked in to 2029.
So it’s a waiting game. One I can’t AFFORD to play. I don’t think Mesa Will get that much more from their daddy’s than a Pat on the head so I want to take the money and run and hope mesa lasts till I ride off into the sunset in a few years.
You can champion doing the right thing for the industry and pilots to come but in the end let’s face it our own personal self Interest comes first. I want to take the money now not later because the amount we can get later won’t be enough soon enough to make it worthwhile.
In recap mesa ALREADY got the promise of money from their daddy’s. I think daddy is done. I’ll take the money. The airline may fold with a yes or no vote. I think a no vote will accelerate the failure and we will NEVER see any more money here. A yes and we get something. Something is better than nothing.
All fair enough points. At the end of the day personally I just can’t sleep at night knowing I signed off on a bad deal. There’s a compromise, and then there’s a complete rip-off.
If the company had come forward and said look we can’t do anything about the money so we’re going to really up the things we do have control over - quality of life, work rules, contract language, but our hands are tied on the pay… this would be a completely different story. But it’s the same old mesa. They’re never going to give up anything they can’t take right back. It’s not a good faith offer. It’s garbage, and it’s about so much more than the abysmal pay.
There’s not a reason in the world they couldn’t have changed a ton of stuff in that contract except that it all helps get them out of tight spots at the expense of the quality of life of the pilots. If everybody else still had the same old horrible contracts but was getting paid more, it would be a valid argument. But we’re once again just absolutely dead last on everything. I’m not voting yes for that.
06-19-2022 | 11:43 AM
#196
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 4,083
Likes: 0
From: CRJ9 CA
All fair enough points. At the end of the day personally I just can’t sleep at night knowing I signed off on a bad deal. There’s a compromise, and then there’s a complete rip-off.
If the company had come forward and said look we can’t do anything about the money so we’re going to really up the things we do have control over - quality of life, work rules, contract language, but our hands are tied on the pay… this would be a completely different story. But it’s the same old mesa. They’re never going to give up anything they can’t take right back. It’s not a good faith offer. It’s garbage, and it’s about so much more than the abysmal pay.
There’s not a reason in the world they couldn’t have changed a ton of stuff in that contract except that it all helps get them out of tight spots at the expense of the quality of life of the pilots. If everybody else still had the same old horrible contracts but was getting paid more, it would be a valid argument. But we’re once again just absolutely dead last on everything. I’m not voting yes for that.
If the company had come forward and said look we can’t do anything about the money so we’re going to really up the things we do have control over - quality of life, work rules, contract language, but our hands are tied on the pay… this would be a completely different story. But it’s the same old mesa. They’re never going to give up anything they can’t take right back. It’s not a good faith offer. It’s garbage, and it’s about so much more than the abysmal pay.
There’s not a reason in the world they couldn’t have changed a ton of stuff in that contract except that it all helps get them out of tight spots at the expense of the quality of life of the pilots. If everybody else still had the same old horrible contracts but was getting paid more, it would be a valid argument. But we’re once again just absolutely dead last on everything. I’m not voting yes for that.
06-19-2022 | 12:02 PM
#197
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,014
Likes: 1
From: Retired NJA & AA
Assume the TA passes. Also assume that Delta and UAL's WO regionals have to match the AA regional pay to avoid massive departures of pilots.
With all the Wholly Owned Airlines paying $90/hr and $150/hr who is Mesa going to get to come fly for them? The only thing helping Mesa right now is they provide AA feed so I think the AA WO are not terribly eager to shoot AA in the foot by taking pilots that may be providing AA feed.
With all the Wholly Owned Airlines paying $90/hr and $150/hr who is Mesa going to get to come fly for them? The only thing helping Mesa right now is they provide AA feed so I think the AA WO are not terribly eager to shoot AA in the foot by taking pilots that may be providing AA feed.
06-19-2022 | 04:18 PM
#200
On Reserve
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 111
Likes: 3
