New Mesa Thread
02-28-2016 | 04:27 AM
#4891
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
From: Mannin' deez blenps
I love how some of these guy show up thinking its gonna be a kiss a--phone call and KY coaxing. They're just waiting for the big "Hired" call to get 'em over to an airline like JetBlue or a major like United. Yeah boys, just keep refreshin airlineapps. Someone will be right with you.
02-28-2016 | 06:12 AM
#4892
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: CL-65
Oh horsesh*t. When I came to Mesa, there was really no quick upgrade anywhere but Compass. And it was HARD to get hired there. (2012-2013) Everyone paid about $22-24 an hour, and anyone who had any sort of a "better" contract, and was hiring (XJT) was career suicide due to all the 50 seaters. Mesa offered the same pay as everyone else, no 50 seaters, and some possible growth (only first 9 900s had heen announced, E175s were a strong rumor) on the horizon.
In today's market with 50k first year pay at 9E, $40 hour year one at OO, XJT, S5, YX..... quick upgrades at TSA, PSA, Compass and OO (soon?) you are nothing short of retarded for coming to work here. There are plenty of places you can get hired to fly a shiny new 175 for almost twice as what Mesa pays.
So yes, You New Guy. As long as you are coming to class, you are hurting our ability to get a new contract. And no, iflyRC is wrong, it's not every other pilot on properties fault. The times were different when we came here. Taking a job that pays $22 hour is not equal to quitting a job that pays $63 an hour just because that same job pays $22 first year. We have too much invested as 3rd or 4th year employees. The problem is the people coming here now.
In today's market with 50k first year pay at 9E, $40 hour year one at OO, XJT, S5, YX..... quick upgrades at TSA, PSA, Compass and OO (soon?) you are nothing short of retarded for coming to work here. There are plenty of places you can get hired to fly a shiny new 175 for almost twice as what Mesa pays.
So yes, You New Guy. As long as you are coming to class, you are hurting our ability to get a new contract. And no, iflyRC is wrong, it's not every other pilot on properties fault. The times were different when we came here. Taking a job that pays $22 hour is not equal to quitting a job that pays $63 an hour just because that same job pays $22 first year. We have too much invested as 3rd or 4th year employees. The problem is the people coming here now.
You can't expect complaining on a fourm to change that fact. It is a fact that people are coming to class for whatever reason they deem to be the right choice for them.
One day, those people will dry up. Who knows when that will be but I don't suspect JO to let that happen anytime soon. He's playing the game well. We are the lowest paid with the highest insurance cost. Its bull, but we came here knowing the game and are choosing to participate.
If you think there is going to be even an industry average contract approved by JO, then I think we are in for a long hard fight in front of us. It is up to the union to fight the good fight under the conditions they operate within. If they are filling classes, then our leverage in that respect is gone. But we have other ways to get a better contract.
02-28-2016 | 06:36 AM
#4893
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: CL-65
Wrong again. This isn't a pilot shortage, it's a PAY shortage. The shortage is of people willing to make 22k /year pretax to fly a large jet. If you make more than 3x that as a captain, then you're not part of the problem. This isn't personal, it's economics. The company doesn't care if you don't like the pay/benefits offered or if they're fair. They only care about cd0/ccf.
I live in the DFW area, have for a while. I left corporate and you can make 45K a year flying right seat in a King Air. You're not even a required crewmember carrying up to 10 people and make far more than the average regional first or second year pay to carry up to 8 times as many people.
There is a PR race out there among airline CEO's to make the issue about pilot availability and not about the pay. They love what they have been able to get away with for years and certainly don't want to loose that. If they can convince the public it is again the "governments fault" for creating poor, useless regulations in terms of pilot requirements, then they win.... again.
It is our job, and the job of our respective unions to continue to make aware to the public what we are paid to fly them around.
02-28-2016 | 07:37 AM
#4894
New Hire
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Ouch
My CFI friend is also comparing airlines and pulled this info together from the APC Airline info pages. It's just APC Data pulled into one place for convenience. For all those asking which regional you should choose, this may be helpful.
APC data was used for pay rates and bonuses. For hourly rates, if there were different rates for different A/C Types, we used a blended rate to keep it simple. Same thing for bonuses. If you want a Captain chart, we can do that too.
If any data needs to be updated, let me know.
EDIT: ExpressJet also just went to $40/hr year 1 and has a DFW base. The graph hasn't been updated yet for this.
Also, the sign on bonus the graph shows for Skywest is only for pilots with a type rating. Xjt has the same deal.
Good luck with your decision.
The data used for the graph:
APC data was used for pay rates and bonuses. For hourly rates, if there were different rates for different A/C Types, we used a blended rate to keep it simple. Same thing for bonuses. If you want a Captain chart, we can do that too.
If any data needs to be updated, let me know.
EDIT: ExpressJet also just went to $40/hr year 1 and has a DFW base. The graph hasn't been updated yet for this.
Also, the sign on bonus the graph shows for Skywest is only for pilots with a type rating. Xjt has the same deal.
Good luck with your decision.
The data used for the graph:
Thank you Skyler for making this so clear.
02-28-2016 | 07:43 AM
#4895
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,537
Likes: 0
From: Downward-Facing Dog Pose
Why do people go to Mesa for $22/hr 1st year? It boggles the mind when Endeavor pays $50K and places like Compass and SkyWest are paying $36.
Is it because they can't get hired at these other places??
Is it because they can't get hired at these other places??
02-28-2016 | 07:52 AM
#4896
Chief Engineer
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
From: CRJ FO
Yes, and because they think the fast upgrade carrot still exists. As well as the retired type wanting to fly for a hobby just has to pick up the phone and bam.
02-28-2016 | 07:56 AM
#4897
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Oh horsesh*t. When I came to Mesa, there was really no quick upgrade anywhere but Compass. And it was HARD to get hired there. (2012-2013) Everyone paid about $22-24 an hour, and anyone who had any sort of a "better" contract, and was hiring (XJT) was career suicide due to all the 50 seaters. Mesa offered the same pay as everyone else, no 50 seaters, and some possible growth (only first 9 900s had heen announced, E175s were a strong rumor) on the horizon.
In today's market with 50k first year pay at 9E, $40 hour year one at OO, XJT, S5, YX..... quick upgrades at TSA, PSA, Compass and OO (soon?) you are nothing short of retarded for coming to work here. There are plenty of places you can get hired to fly a shiny new 175 for almost twice as what Mesa pays.
So yes, You New Guy. As long as you are coming to class, you are hurting our ability to get a new contract. And no, iflyRC is wrong, it's not every other pilot on properties fault. The times were different when we came here. Taking a job that pays $22 hour is not equal to quitting a job that pays $63 an hour just because that same job pays $22 first year. We have too much invested as 3rd or 4th year employees. The problem is the people coming here now.
In today's market with 50k first year pay at 9E, $40 hour year one at OO, XJT, S5, YX..... quick upgrades at TSA, PSA, Compass and OO (soon?) you are nothing short of retarded for coming to work here. There are plenty of places you can get hired to fly a shiny new 175 for almost twice as what Mesa pays.
So yes, You New Guy. As long as you are coming to class, you are hurting our ability to get a new contract. And no, iflyRC is wrong, it's not every other pilot on properties fault. The times were different when we came here. Taking a job that pays $22 hour is not equal to quitting a job that pays $63 an hour just because that same job pays $22 first year. We have too much invested as 3rd or 4th year employees. The problem is the people coming here now.
You and Navmode and ScottyDooDoo have been at this for a whopping 3 or 4 years but you expect the rest of us to consider you experts in all things pt121, including collective bargaining?
And, you watched conditions worsen over that 3 or 4 year period, did nothing, watched ALPA do nothing, and choose to blame people who weren't even around instead?
Let's do some research. Find one example where, within the last 80 years, the Railroad Act (RRA) was enforced AGAINST organized labor. Now find one example where civilian employees of a privately owned business or even a publicly owned corporation were punished under that act either civilly or criminally by a court for work cessation. Remember, unprotected Government employees terminated by the gov don't count.
While you're at it, explain how the AA pilots and others have successfully avoided the RRA. There is nothing in the 17 sections of the 1862 act nor the subsequent statutes enacted through 1874 that pertains to airlines. Specific language pertains to the movement of troops, equipment, mail, and the continued provision of other services essential to the security and economic welfare of the USA. Airlines aren't mentioned once, big surprise since they didn't exist yet. For ANY current company, let alone a regional airline to attempt to expect remedy from the Federal government under the antiquated law is laughable. And, so is any expectation that the gov would attempt to apply it to any company other than a railroad or a telecommunications company that utilizes a railroad right-of-way. The language is very specific. Far too specific for the gov to use it to protect a regional airline, particularly one that they, otherwise, care nothing about.
That is why other pilot unions have successfully threatened a/o engaged in work stoppages without reprisal. ALPA is hiding behind this lame excuse while doing very little on behalf of most regional airlines ... especially Mesa. Yes, we do get our money's worth when personal protection is sought from them but, collective protection? That's another story altogether. My suspicion is that JO laughs them out of his office because he knows they're a joke.
So, to those who need to hear it yet again ... focus your frustrations and efforts in the proper direction.
02-28-2016 | 08:47 AM
#4898
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Just stop. Your blue-sky kumbaya attitude is simply out of blind ignorance. JO has said to many pilots' faces that the reason why he pays so low is because that is what the market dictates. Supply vs. demand. As long as wide eyed new hires fill classes, there is no economic reason to raise pay.
You presumably haven't even finished training, but you already think you're of good authority to decide who "gets it"? You should slow down on spouting your garbage before you know a thing or two about what you're talking about.
To those that spout about how "quick upgrades are alive": how many people actually upgraded in less than a year? 10? 30? I don't study standing bid awards, but it's not enough to sell that to a friend to come here. As others have said, if you were hired in 2013-14 and were able to make short work of the embaressing FO pay scale, great. However, if you come here because it's the only place you could get hired and don't care about the pay... You're a part of the problem, and you're lying to yourself.
The company has been completely unwilling to provide us with improvements in pay, hotels, healthcare, NONREV BENEFITS, interviews/flows or anything else for that matter. Anyone that signs up for a class date today is either 1. A mid-life crisis type 2. Can't get hired elsewhere or 3. Has either done no research, or doesn't value them self as a professional pilot
You presumably haven't even finished training, but you already think you're of good authority to decide who "gets it"? You should slow down on spouting your garbage before you know a thing or two about what you're talking about.
To those that spout about how "quick upgrades are alive": how many people actually upgraded in less than a year? 10? 30? I don't study standing bid awards, but it's not enough to sell that to a friend to come here. As others have said, if you were hired in 2013-14 and were able to make short work of the embaressing FO pay scale, great. However, if you come here because it's the only place you could get hired and don't care about the pay... You're a part of the problem, and you're lying to yourself.
The company has been completely unwilling to provide us with improvements in pay, hotels, healthcare, NONREV BENEFITS, interviews/flows or anything else for that matter. Anyone that signs up for a class date today is either 1. A mid-life crisis type 2. Can't get hired elsewhere or 3. Has either done no research, or doesn't value them self as a professional pilot
02-28-2016 | 08:55 AM
#4899
Living the Dream
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,795
Likes: 0
Let me see if I understand this ...
You and Navmode and ScottyDooDoo have been at this for a whopping 3 or 4 years but you expect the rest of us to consider you experts in all things pt121, including collective bargaining?
And, you watched conditions worsen over that 3 or 4 year period, did nothing, watched ALPA do nothing, and choose to blame people who weren't even around instead?
Let's do some research. Find one example where, within the last 80 years, the Railroad Act (RRA) was enforced AGAINST organized labor. Now find one example where civilian employees of a privately owned business or even a publicly owned corporation were punished under that act either civilly or criminally by a court for work cessation. Remember, unprotected Government employees terminated by the gov don't count.
While you're at it, explain how the AA pilots and others have successfully avoided the RRA. There is nothing in the 17 sections of the 1862 act nor the subsequent statutes enacted through 1874 that pertains to airlines. Specific language pertains to the movement of troops, equipment, mail, and the continued provision of other services essential to the security and economic welfare of the USA. Airlines aren't mentioned once, big surprise since they didn't exist yet. For ANY current company, let alone a regional airline to attempt to expect remedy from the Federal government under the antiquated law is laughable. And, so is any expectation that the gov would attempt to apply it to any company other than a railroad or a telecommunications company that utilizes a railroad right-of-way. The language is very specific. Far too specific for the gov to use it to protect a regional airline, particularly one that they, otherwise, care nothing about.
That is why other pilot unions have successfully threatened a/o engaged in work stoppages without reprisal. ALPA is hiding behind this lame excuse while doing very little on behalf of most regional airlines ... especially Mesa. Yes, we do get our money's worth when personal protection is sought from them but, collective protection? That's another story altogether. My suspicion is that JO laughs them out of his office because he knows they're a joke.
So, to those who need to hear it yet again ... focus your frustrations and efforts in the proper direction.
You and Navmode and ScottyDooDoo have been at this for a whopping 3 or 4 years but you expect the rest of us to consider you experts in all things pt121, including collective bargaining?
And, you watched conditions worsen over that 3 or 4 year period, did nothing, watched ALPA do nothing, and choose to blame people who weren't even around instead?
Let's do some research. Find one example where, within the last 80 years, the Railroad Act (RRA) was enforced AGAINST organized labor. Now find one example where civilian employees of a privately owned business or even a publicly owned corporation were punished under that act either civilly or criminally by a court for work cessation. Remember, unprotected Government employees terminated by the gov don't count.
While you're at it, explain how the AA pilots and others have successfully avoided the RRA. There is nothing in the 17 sections of the 1862 act nor the subsequent statutes enacted through 1874 that pertains to airlines. Specific language pertains to the movement of troops, equipment, mail, and the continued provision of other services essential to the security and economic welfare of the USA. Airlines aren't mentioned once, big surprise since they didn't exist yet. For ANY current company, let alone a regional airline to attempt to expect remedy from the Federal government under the antiquated law is laughable. And, so is any expectation that the gov would attempt to apply it to any company other than a railroad or a telecommunications company that utilizes a railroad right-of-way. The language is very specific. Far too specific for the gov to use it to protect a regional airline, particularly one that they, otherwise, care nothing about.
That is why other pilot unions have successfully threatened a/o engaged in work stoppages without reprisal. ALPA is hiding behind this lame excuse while doing very little on behalf of most regional airlines ... especially Mesa. Yes, we do get our money's worth when personal protection is sought from them but, collective protection? That's another story altogether. My suspicion is that JO laughs them out of his office because he knows they're a joke.
So, to those who need to hear it yet again ... focus your frustrations and efforts in the proper direction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Labor_Act
It was enacted in 1926 and adjusted in the 30's. Airline employees are almost always denied the right to strike, even after the conditions of the Railway Labor Act have been satisfied to do so. Illegal job actions have also cost unions money in the past, including one at American where it was discovered there had been an organized sick out. The union was fined tens of million (http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/cwc/prof...ot-sickout.pdf). Pilots knowledgable about the RLA absolutely hate it because it's an archaic POS piece of legislation that doesn't have any place in the 2016 airline industry, and yet it still neuters our unions and stops us from getting anything done.
Allegiant tried to strike just last year. Told they couldn't: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/03...on-strike.html
02-28-2016 | 08:56 AM
#4900
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
but the new hires are still coming...
You can't expect complaining on a fourm to change that fact. It is a fact that people are coming to class for whatever reason they deem to be the right choice for them.
One day, those people will dry up. Who knows when that will be but i don't suspect jo to let that happen anytime soon. He's playing the game well. We are the lowest paid with the highest insurance cost. Its bull, but we came here knowing the game and are choosing to participate.
If you think there is going to be even an industry average contract approved by jo, then i think we are in for a long hard fight in front of us. It is up to the union to fight the good fight under the conditions they operate within. If they are filling classes, then our leverage in that respect is gone. But we have other ways to get a better contract.
You can't expect complaining on a fourm to change that fact. It is a fact that people are coming to class for whatever reason they deem to be the right choice for them.
One day, those people will dry up. Who knows when that will be but i don't suspect jo to let that happen anytime soon. He's playing the game well. We are the lowest paid with the highest insurance cost. Its bull, but we came here knowing the game and are choosing to participate.
If you think there is going to be even an industry average contract approved by jo, then i think we are in for a long hard fight in front of us. It is up to the union to fight the good fight under the conditions they operate within. If they are filling classes, then our leverage in that respect is gone. But we have other ways to get a better contract.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
