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Force Shaping release 26 July

Old 07-31-2006, 10:28 AM
  #21  
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Shack,
You are 100% entitled to your opinion, and the arguments you make are valid ones. Most of us did join the AF because we wanted to serve. However, I think you may be passing judgement without hearing the full story here. If service was completely, in and of itself, it's own reward, no one would join an all volunteer military. The truth of the matter is, if you want people to serve in this military, you have to offer something in return. For a lot of flyers, that something was the chance to FLY in the greatest Air Force in the world. At many units these days, actually going flying (i.e. a pilot's PRIMARY duty) has taken a back-burner to more "important" duties. Many of us are being told that flying even once a week is putting too much of a burden on our various offices. If it were senior Majors and LtCols being told these things, I might be able to understand better, but we are talking mid-level Captains here with maybe 4-5 years of flying experience. At my unit, it is a fight to get 250hrs a year. If I were treated like the professional I am expected to be, I would stay in this Air Force forever. Unfortunately, I am expected to rush through mediocre computer based training, complete simulator sessions with mere hours of notice, and glean everything I need to know about my airplane during the two to three sorties I am allowed to fly each month. The Air Force has made it clear to many of us that it no longer takes FLYING seriously. And here I thought that's what the Air Force was supposed to be good at. So, yes, I am considering taking the money that the Air Force is offering because in it's infinite wisdom, it has decided that it's personnel are not yet tasked enough. Oh and by the way, IF I do leave, I will do so proud to have served with ANYONE who has had the guts to step into a uniform. And if I were to meet you on a bar-stool somewhere, I'd happily buy you a beer and discuss the issue further.

TD
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:23 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Tanker-driver
Shack,
You are 100% entitled to your opinion, and the arguments you make are valid ones. Most of us did join the AF because we wanted to serve. However, I think you may be passing judgement without hearing the full story here. If service was completely, in and of itself, it's own reward, no one would join an all volunteer military. The truth of the matter is, if you want people to serve in this military, you have to offer something in return. For a lot of flyers, that something was the chance to FLY in the greatest Air Force in the world. At many units these days, actually going flying (i.e. a pilot's PRIMARY duty) has taken a back-burner to more "important" duties. Many of us are being told that flying even once a week is putting too much of a burden on our various offices. If it were senior Majors and LtCols being told these things, I might be able to understand better, but we are talking mid-level Captains here with maybe 4-5 years of flying experience. At my unit, it is a fight to get 250hrs a year. If I were treated like the professional I am expected to be, I would stay in this Air Force forever. Unfortunately, I am expected to rush through mediocre computer based training, complete simulator sessions with mere hours of notice, and glean everything I need to know about my airplane during the two to three sorties I am allowed to fly each month. The Air Force has made it clear to many of us that it no longer takes FLYING seriously. And here I thought that's what the Air Force was supposed to be good at. So, yes, I am considering taking the money that the Air Force is offering because in it's infinite wisdom, it has decided that it's personnel are not yet tasked enough. Oh and by the way, IF I do leave, I will do so proud to have served with ANYONE who has had the guts to step into a uniform. And if I were to meet you on a bar-stool somewhere, I'd happily buy you a beer and discuss the issue further.

TD
I couldn't have said it better myself. I agree 100%. I'm not going to lie. I joined the world's most kickass air force to fly the worlds most kickass aircraft. Plain and simple. The Air Force is not what I thought it'd be. Since I was 12 years old, I had been eating, sleeping and crap'n military aviation and quite frankly, the Air Force has disappointed me. I've really lost my motivation and have realized that this is just not the flying job I thought it'd be. The quality of airmanship of some is going down the tubes. I see it every time I fly with that person who hasn't been able to get out of the office all month and is trying to get his one takeoff, approach and landing in to stay "current". Current maybe. Safe, hell no. This is becoming more and more common. I've been almost killed too many times by people that are not proficient. Yet, we keep Q1'ing people on checkrides, letting stuff slide that shouldn't to avoid the embarrassment and paperwork.

In addition to that, we're upgrading a lot people too quickly these days. Leadership looks at upgrades in more of a career enhancement way than they do in an "are they ready to be an AC or IP?" way. 200+ hours every two month desert deployment and after 3 one of those (in a year) not having gone anywhere else, you're ready to be an aircraft commander in AMC. Go figure. I fear the day we lose some people from lack of experience and/or proficiency. It will happen. It's just a matter of time. Oh, but as long as you can write a good OPR or Quarterly Award or raise $150 for the squadron from the Federal Campaign program, you're golden.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:39 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Tanker-driver
If service was completely, in and of itself, it's own reward, no one would join an all volunteer military.
You lost me there. What, then, would they do? Wait for a draft there never came?

Look guys...I'm not naive, nor was I born yesterday...and you are sure as he11 not the first to see conditions that weren't pretty. You folks aren't the first to consider getting out, nor will you be the last.

Have you guys ever heard of the 'Dear Boss' letter? Check it out sometime. Your generation isn't the first to have b1tches. That was my generation, written by another F-4 driver who was in my year group. Not a single one of your complaints was anything new 30 years ago.

Some people stuck it out and tried to make the system better. Some didn't.

Oh...the guy who wrote the 'Dear Boss' letter...what ever happened to him? Did he go to AA or Delta?

Nope...he's currently the ACC Commander.
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Old 07-31-2006, 04:48 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by shackone
That's the problem...people confusing money with service.

I'm not trying to preach to anyone...I'm just expressing the opinion that service to one's country used to be a sufficient reward by itself. For some. Maybe even most.
Are you Kidding Me. Its statements like this that are just as inflammatory. Your position is that you only served for country. You NEVER took a pay check? Are you telling me you donate your retirement check every month to the USO? If serving your county is reward enough then you should not need to be paid! If just serving is not quite enough then maybe you might want to be paid for your time. Or are you maybe confusing the issue just a little bit.

The amount you are paid in the military is much more than what is required to survive on. For example, did you have a TV when you were on active duty, a car, maybe a family? All of these things are not survival items. They are luxury items that we want. Our desire to serve, to be a part of something bigger than ourselves, our need to stand on the wall in whatever capacity we could is why we were interested in the military. The opportunities provided, the experience gained, the potential self fulfillment is why we signed up. The pay guaranteed we could afford a normal life when deployments and war allowed, and gave us the opportunities to have a wife and kids or toys. There is always a balance between pay and service. Always has been, always will be.

Very few people can afford to serve without getting paid. Many more could live in the dorms or tents, walk every where, and have nothing and still serve, but for some reason the services have had difficulty signing people up for that type of service. Now we have too many in a few slots and the services are offering up cash to see if they can interest some in leaving. By definition, the military is saying that the best way that the people targeted can serve is to leave. Oh, and we'll pay you for doing what we want because we recognize that you might not be prepared to leave or want to leave. But we need you to leave, so, what is the price that might make you separate? Right now these same people can walk away. The fact that they haven't means they want to serve.

So, if while you were on active duty: you ever went to finance to fix a pay problem, ever refile’d a travel voucher because you weren't paid correctly, ever cashed a retirement check, then you also placed money before service. If it was not important you would never have needed to be paid. Just a thought, but aim before you shoot. You’ll have much better chance of hitting the mark. Always better then beating down the fellows.
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Old 07-31-2006, 06:33 PM
  #25  
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Wow - I never thought I'd start souch a heated debate. I'm glad though, that I'm not the only one having these discussions. I'm glad I'm not the only one toiling with this process and tossing and turning not being able to sleep at night trying to decide what to do for me and my family.
Speaking of family, I don't remember reading much about that in the previous posts. Most of us that are in this boat prbably have families to consider. How many of them are tired of being home alone for 200-320 days of the year? How many of us have come home from our third deployment that year and had our kids afraid to talk to this stranger? How many wives or husbands have put their career plans on indefinite hold because we didn't know when or where we would move next? Granted a lot of these issues are not new since we signed our names on that line, but they certainly weren't presented to us that way.

ShackOne, I thought long and hard about my future in the AF, and am not ashamed to say I applied for that chance to get out with the VSP. If you say good riddens to me, I'm sorry. But when my peers and I dreamed of flying in the AF, we did so because of those who had done it before us; those who we read about and saw movies about. People like you, I'm sure. I truly wish the "good 'ol days" were still here - they'd have to pull me out kicking and screaming. Unfurtunately those days are long gone. Bottom line, it isn't the same AF you probably remember, and it isn't the same as when we all started as young cadets. I'm not ashamed of your service - don't be ashamed of mine.


Oh - and those of us who are considering separating early instead of retirement aren't the bottom of the barrel. On the contrary. From what I see, it's the cream of the crop. What's that tell you...?
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:24 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by shackone
You lost me there. What, then, would they do? Wait for a draft there never came?
By that, I simply meant that, for most, service is a great motivator in their decision to join the military, but it is not the only one. In order to get people to put their lives on the line, you must compensate them somehow, [I]especially[I]in an all volunteer military. For most of us, flying and a good-deal TDY once in a while are all the compensation we ever ask for. However, those things are becoming less common with every day that passes. Instead, hard workers are rewarded with more work while slackers get the good deals because no one wants to task them with anything because they know it'll be screwed up.
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Old 08-01-2006, 04:23 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Pilot_135
I truly wish the "good 'ol days" were still here - they'd have to pull me out kicking and screaming. Unfurtunately those days are long gone. Bottom line, it isn't the same AF you probably remember, and it isn't the same as when we all started as young cadets. I'm not ashamed of your service - don't be ashamed of mine.
First of all, I don't know what you know of the 'good old days', but it doesn't sound like much. That phrase is worn out...there never were days like that, every time had its share of good deals and bad deals. Whatever complaints you folks may have about today, I'm quite willing to match you one for one.

Ever heard of a '3' ER...you know, the infamous 'promotable 3'? If not, and I imagine that's the case, then you folks don't have a clue about what a real b1tch is.

So far, about all I've heard is that you guys don't like the TDY to Iraq. Well, too bad. That's what we all signed up for. The US isn't in the business of fighting inside our own borders...far away places is where we end up plying our trade. And that's what the AF is all about...war...our trade. Not about good time TDYs, or fun times in the squadron, or lots of 'quality' flying.

What else is there to complain about? Limited career progression? Poor leadership? Little reward for a job well done? Read that 'Dear Boss' letter again. You aren't the first, not will you be the last. The trick isn't to complain about it...it's to follow Key's example and make a career out of trying to make things better.

Do I sound unsympathetic? Oh...I'm sympathetic. Up to a point. I remember frustrations that you guys can't even imagine. Ever read much about how we fought the Vietnam air war? Or didn't fight it, as it so happened. And the lives that were squandered in the process. And you guys want to complain about not getting the 'fun' TDYs! YGBSM.

No...I'm not pulling the WHITLY stuff on you...but you guys need a reality check.

Lastly...I said nothing about being ashamed of anyone's service. I wasn't referring to things accomplished...I was addressing your future decisions regarding your decisions to remain in the AF.

Oh...one more thing. That compensation argument, or non-argument as the case may be. That one was truly a stab in the dark. Even priests get paid.


Originally Posted by Pilot_135
Oh - and those of us who are considering separating early instead of retirement aren't the bottom of the barrel. On the contrary. From what I see, it's the cream of the crop. What's that tell you...?
It tells me nothing relative to this discussion. It's only an unproven assertion.
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Old 08-01-2006, 06:48 PM
  #28  
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Shack, I never meant that you or anyone before us had things to complain about. I think we all would agree that no matter how good or bad we have/had it, there will always be something to complain about just diferent stuff - hell it's aircrew perogative. Most people have gotten used to the the deployments to some extent - we are just tired of it. I think the bigger complaint is the office related stuff. Part of the Force Shaping issue is that all those jobs they are cutting back on are having to be done by someone else - the rest of us.
I do have a question though. Why do you think it's a requirement for all of us to stay in to 20+ years? Do you think I should get a dishonerable discharge if/when I don't retire? The basic commitment to the AF is 4 years. Why is it shameful to put in those 4, or 8, or whatever a person's training commitment is, and say thank you very much, it's time to move on with my life? What about the enlisted force? Are they as shameful to you for the same thing?
Would you agree that the services have a natural attrition process? Isn't that what they have promotion boards for? Hell, isn't that what the whole Force Shaping process if for? They are saying to us, "we don't want/need you anymore - please leave". Why should I NOT take the opportunity to get some compensation if they are going to get rid of me anyway? I think you have the impression we are all here for the money and nothing else. That's pretty insulting.
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Old 08-01-2006, 07:17 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Pilot_135
I do have a question though. Why do you think it's a requirement for all of us to stay in to 20+ years?
You have missed my point. I said nothing about a 'requirement'. I was talking about a sense of duty. If that is too abstract, then my bad.

Originally Posted by Pilot_135
Do you think I should get a dishonerable discharge if/when I don't retire?
Was that supposed to be a serious question? I hope not.

Originally Posted by Pilot_135
The basic commitment to the AF is 4 years. Why is it shameful to put in those 4, or 8, or whatever a person's training commitment is, and say thank you very much, it's time to move on with my life?
You are playing that 'shame' card again. I said nothing about shame.

Originally Posted by Pilot_135
What about the enlisted force? Are they as shameful to you for the same thing?
Enlisted personnel do not have a commission. They have an enlistment, and at the end of that enlistment, they are free to leave. Please don't play the enlisted/officer card...it doesn't make you any points.

Originally Posted by Pilot_135
Would you agree that the services have a natural attrition process? Isn't that what they have promotion boards for? Hell, isn't that what the whole Force Shaping process if for?
Yes...the military is a meritocracy, and those that don't measure up are subject to 'attrition'. I wouldn't call 'force shaping' natural attrition...if anything, it is unnatural and forced attrition, a consequence of unforeseen circumstances and results in a reduction of personnel in excess of the typical attrition.

Originally Posted by Pilot_135
I think you have the impression we are all here for the money and nothing else. That's pretty insulting.
I have no way of knowing why you are here (and that is really my whole point), but one thing seems pretty certain...money is at the heart of this subject. Otherwise, why is it on the table?
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Old 08-02-2006, 03:03 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by shackone
You lost me there. What, then, would they do? Wait for a draft there never came?

Look guys...I'm not naive, nor was I born yesterday...and you are sure as he11 not the first to see conditions that weren't pretty. You folks aren't the first to consider getting out, nor will you be the last.

Have you guys ever heard of the 'Dear Boss' letter? Check it out sometime. Your generation isn't the first to have b1tches. That was my generation, written by another F-4 driver who was in my year group. Not a single one of your complaints was anything new 30 years ago.

Some people stuck it out and tried to make the system better. Some didn't.

Oh...the guy who wrote the 'Dear Boss' letter...what ever happened to him? Did he go to AA or Delta?

Nope...he's currently the ACC Commander.
This is a good post. When I was reading of what is going on in the "current" AF and how the AF has "changed", I kinda laughed ... that could have been written in 1975, 1983, 1987, 1994, etc. (except the tanker guys would have been complaining about being "jailed" for 7 days every 3 weeks on alert).
When I read that, I was thinking these guys are giving reasons NOT to get out. If conditions are deteriorating, then they, as mid level Captains, need to stay and FIX the problems by getting promoted, becoming staff officers (and changing the mediocre computer training), commanders (and correcting the emphasis on writing OPRs etc that make you "golden"); senior staff (to fight for additional flying hours for the command) and finally senior commanders (to change the culture back to a fly and fight AF).

Your example of a letter that is *****ing (Dear Boss letter) illustrates this precisely--the dude that was *****ing STAYED in an attempt to make it better. (Evidently, at least according to the captains, he must've drank the Kool Aid; because it seems things are still the same).
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