PDT News and Rumors
#5411
I'm not going to tell you what to do. Vote for what's best for you and your family. However your math is off. Extrapolate that out to the size of envoy. 2650 - 320 = 2330 / 125 = 18.64 ~ 19
19+36=55 ~ 2%
So it gets worse as you get larger. It may or may not affect the guys on property. That will be dependent on managements.
19+36=55 ~ 2%
So it gets worse as you get larger. It may or may not affect the guys on property. That will be dependent on managements.
This allows many to flow and many to upgrade and get out of PDT. It's not a Career airline anymore. Get your time and move on. Just like Republic Boy did.
#5412
On Reserve
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 16
Please vote accordingly.
From EL. thought it was worth the share
From EL. thought it was worth the share
LOA 19 is part of a Tentative Agreement between Piedmont Airlines and Piedmont ALPA which offers to potentially place the E-175 at Piedmont as part of a comprehensive TA if parent American Airlines Group chooses to at some point in the future. Unanswered is what happens if AAG and Envoy ink a deal in the interim. The MEC has passed the TA to the membership for a ratification vote.
- LOA 19 B.1.b “If EMB-175 aircraft (or other jet aircraft with 60-76 seats) are placed at Piedmont Airlines...”
- LOA 19 Appendix C 1.a. “If, on or after the effective date of this Letter of Agreement, AA makes the final determination, in its sole discretion, to seek to fill new pilot positions...”
- LOA 19 Appendix C 2.a. “AA will permit a Piedmont pilot who has applied for a New Pilot Position to participate in the PFP if, and only if, he/she:”...
- LOA 19 Appendix D 1. a. “Piedmont will maintain a minimum of twenty (20) airframes in revenue service to be operated by pilots on the Piedmont Pilot Seniority List...”
- LOA 19 Appendix D preamble “...provided for the possible placement of EMB-175 aircraft at Piedmont Airlines...” (Fancy way of saying if)
- LOA 19 Appendix D 2.a. “Subject to the labor contingency found in paragraph 2.c., below, a minimum of twenty (20) EMB-175 aircraft will be placed into revenue service at Piedmont Airlines...” (Subject to = if)
- LOA 19 Appendix D 2.c. “The commitments in this paragraph 2 are predicated on meaningful participation in Jet Aircraft Negotiations by other labor groups at Piedmont.” (“Predicated” is the MBA way of saying if flight attendants and mechanics also agree to terms Piedmont will then get E-175s. Maybe.)
If this TA is ratified there may be flow up of 36 a year for an average of 3 per month. The PDT MEC states that, out of approximately 360 pilots, 100 are over 55 years old and may want to finish a career. If all of them elect to stay, leaving 260 pilots to flow up, and if every one of those 260 elect to exercise the right to flow, then the last pilot on property will flow up in 7 years. (Not to mention those who remain will fill every Captain position along the way, thus stagnating the bottom half of the list.) That is the best case. LOA 19 only agrees to a minimum of 20 airframes in total. Manning will decline significantly in any event as the DASH-8 retires. AAG is also placing or has placed E-175s at Compass and Republic.
American (post-merger) will have over 12,000 pilots, of which over 50% will retire in 10 years as published by several sources. Every other major carrier, passenger and cargo alike, will have a similar issue and is currently hiring. Will American hire pilots from the Piedmont pilot hopper when they know they will get those same pilots at some point in the future anyway? Will the other major airlines hire from Piedmont and negate the pilot buffer AAG is building with the flow through agreements? Inquiring minds want to know.
If Envoy negotiates a TA at any time during the delivery of the E-175’s to the AAG property then AAG has no obligation to place those jets at Piedmont.
Envoy deserves a special mention: A recent article in The Street about the impasse at Envoy quoted President Lee Moak at ALPA National as saying the mainline airline industry “has to compete in the marketplace for those same pilots” as the regionals. He goes on to say the mainline carriers are hiring and also “foreign airlines from Asia are coming to the U.S. and running summits and saying ‘come to us, we will move you to Asia and the Middle East,’ and pilots are choosing to go abroad rather than work for wages that are below market.” He stated the problem with the “regional industry is falsely perceived to be a pilot shortage, when in reality it is a pay shortage.”
Equating the two is WRONG. Pay degradation is a CAUSE, a shortage is a RESULT. They are not equivalent. Economists will declare a “shortage” at some time in the future, long after the dust has settled from this or any other TA. The labor market is fluid and responds to the macro environment, which is a far larger issue than can be addressed in a paragraph. The Envoy pilots have rejected a TA that is far superior to what Piedmont is being offered.
"The regional carriers -- Republic, Mesa, Trans States, the wholly-owneds -- all undercut each other in their air service agreements" with mainline carriers, [Moak] said. "They don't have a lot of room in those contracts.” It sounds like management has a problem, and ALPA wants professional pilots at [insert FFD carrier here] to solve it for them. Like a junkie, management is addicted to the low cost FFD. It is the monkey on their back. Flow through agreements are gateway drugs to airline managements, and professional pilots are the candy.
If Piedmont pilots accepts this TA they are enabling the addicts.
If Piedmont pilots ratify this contract a new floor will be set for the FFD segment in order to myopically protect a few with ignorance of the big picture. ALPA negotiates for a large portion of “the market” and is asking Piedmont to ratify an inferior contract that will set a new, lower bar while the major airlines are enjoying record profits. (Projected to be $4 billion at AAG this year)
If Piedmont pilots reject this TA they will continue to answer the question “What is the lowest a company can pay a professional pilot?” It is certainly higher than what is being offered.
If the professional pilots of Piedmont reject this TA they will be joining the ranks of ExpressJet, Republic, and Envoy in telling airline management that the profession has degraded below what is acceptable. It is time to re-think the career path and the value of a skilled professional.
Don’t feed the monkey.
- LOA 19 B.1.b “If EMB-175 aircraft (or other jet aircraft with 60-76 seats) are placed at Piedmont Airlines...”
- LOA 19 Appendix C 1.a. “If, on or after the effective date of this Letter of Agreement, AA makes the final determination, in its sole discretion, to seek to fill new pilot positions...”
- LOA 19 Appendix C 2.a. “AA will permit a Piedmont pilot who has applied for a New Pilot Position to participate in the PFP if, and only if, he/she:”...
- LOA 19 Appendix D 1. a. “Piedmont will maintain a minimum of twenty (20) airframes in revenue service to be operated by pilots on the Piedmont Pilot Seniority List...”
- LOA 19 Appendix D preamble “...provided for the possible placement of EMB-175 aircraft at Piedmont Airlines...” (Fancy way of saying if)
- LOA 19 Appendix D 2.a. “Subject to the labor contingency found in paragraph 2.c., below, a minimum of twenty (20) EMB-175 aircraft will be placed into revenue service at Piedmont Airlines...” (Subject to = if)
- LOA 19 Appendix D 2.c. “The commitments in this paragraph 2 are predicated on meaningful participation in Jet Aircraft Negotiations by other labor groups at Piedmont.” (“Predicated” is the MBA way of saying if flight attendants and mechanics also agree to terms Piedmont will then get E-175s. Maybe.)
If this TA is ratified there may be flow up of 36 a year for an average of 3 per month. The PDT MEC states that, out of approximately 360 pilots, 100 are over 55 years old and may want to finish a career. If all of them elect to stay, leaving 260 pilots to flow up, and if every one of those 260 elect to exercise the right to flow, then the last pilot on property will flow up in 7 years. (Not to mention those who remain will fill every Captain position along the way, thus stagnating the bottom half of the list.) That is the best case. LOA 19 only agrees to a minimum of 20 airframes in total. Manning will decline significantly in any event as the DASH-8 retires. AAG is also placing or has placed E-175s at Compass and Republic.
American (post-merger) will have over 12,000 pilots, of which over 50% will retire in 10 years as published by several sources. Every other major carrier, passenger and cargo alike, will have a similar issue and is currently hiring. Will American hire pilots from the Piedmont pilot hopper when they know they will get those same pilots at some point in the future anyway? Will the other major airlines hire from Piedmont and negate the pilot buffer AAG is building with the flow through agreements? Inquiring minds want to know.
If Envoy negotiates a TA at any time during the delivery of the E-175’s to the AAG property then AAG has no obligation to place those jets at Piedmont.
Envoy deserves a special mention: A recent article in The Street about the impasse at Envoy quoted President Lee Moak at ALPA National as saying the mainline airline industry “has to compete in the marketplace for those same pilots” as the regionals. He goes on to say the mainline carriers are hiring and also “foreign airlines from Asia are coming to the U.S. and running summits and saying ‘come to us, we will move you to Asia and the Middle East,’ and pilots are choosing to go abroad rather than work for wages that are below market.” He stated the problem with the “regional industry is falsely perceived to be a pilot shortage, when in reality it is a pay shortage.”
Equating the two is WRONG. Pay degradation is a CAUSE, a shortage is a RESULT. They are not equivalent. Economists will declare a “shortage” at some time in the future, long after the dust has settled from this or any other TA. The labor market is fluid and responds to the macro environment, which is a far larger issue than can be addressed in a paragraph. The Envoy pilots have rejected a TA that is far superior to what Piedmont is being offered.
"The regional carriers -- Republic, Mesa, Trans States, the wholly-owneds -- all undercut each other in their air service agreements" with mainline carriers, [Moak] said. "They don't have a lot of room in those contracts.” It sounds like management has a problem, and ALPA wants professional pilots at [insert FFD carrier here] to solve it for them. Like a junkie, management is addicted to the low cost FFD. It is the monkey on their back. Flow through agreements are gateway drugs to airline managements, and professional pilots are the candy.
If Piedmont pilots accepts this TA they are enabling the addicts.
If Piedmont pilots ratify this contract a new floor will be set for the FFD segment in order to myopically protect a few with ignorance of the big picture. ALPA negotiates for a large portion of “the market” and is asking Piedmont to ratify an inferior contract that will set a new, lower bar while the major airlines are enjoying record profits. (Projected to be $4 billion at AAG this year)
If Piedmont pilots reject this TA they will continue to answer the question “What is the lowest a company can pay a professional pilot?” It is certainly higher than what is being offered.
If the professional pilots of Piedmont reject this TA they will be joining the ranks of ExpressJet, Republic, and Envoy in telling airline management that the profession has degraded below what is acceptable. It is time to re-think the career path and the value of a skilled professional.
Don’t feed the monkey.
#5413
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 200
There will eventually be consolidations. We don't want the planes nor should you. They need to be placed at mainline not the regionals. Look at the big picture. Do you rather flow in 2 years or 5 ?
#5414
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,953
I'm curious as to how the top 100 pilots at PDT feel about merging with Envoy?
#5415
Not so fast. I've come across 30 year guys that are actually interested in flowing over the past week. There is a bit of a renaissance over this TA. Its refreshing to be honest.
#5416
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,953
Would you agree that AA is asking for 12/4 from all its regional affiliates to merge them? I can't think of any other reason other than that they know FO upgrade times will be extreme.
#5417
Ok besides the flow which trust me noone cares about that much, this is a healthy pay rate for pdt pilots. It's 15+ dollars an hour for captains.
Captain year 10
Dash 8 - 100 $64 per hour
Dash 8 - 300 (which mdt based pilots don't even fly, our largest base) $69 per hour
Emb 175 $85 per hour
So keep on mind a mdt captain is looking at a 20 dollar an hour raise, just saying that's kinda hard to turn down, even with the detractors in the contract which are mostly negligible I mean lose 1/2 an hour per month of sick pay? Vacation is paid at 4.2 per hour? The only real questionable section is an increase in health care which is already set to increase every year in our current cba? Just wanted to throw this out there would you turn down a pay raise like that?, should we reject it and hope for another couple dollars risking almost certain death in a few years? What kind of gains do we really expect we can get above that if we say no? Probably not a whole lot I think management is pretty set on their end hence it's taken us to almost the end of the line to get a ta finally, unlike psa put NC has been negotiating for a long time, not like we're just taking the first offer and accepting it there has been a lot of sitting at the table with management for years to try and find a decent agreement for jets, just that usually psa undercuts us and takes the first offer from management without any negotiations negating any progress we make. Just my two cents I understand not everyone agrees with this.
Captain year 10
Dash 8 - 100 $64 per hour
Dash 8 - 300 (which mdt based pilots don't even fly, our largest base) $69 per hour
Emb 175 $85 per hour
So keep on mind a mdt captain is looking at a 20 dollar an hour raise, just saying that's kinda hard to turn down, even with the detractors in the contract which are mostly negligible I mean lose 1/2 an hour per month of sick pay? Vacation is paid at 4.2 per hour? The only real questionable section is an increase in health care which is already set to increase every year in our current cba? Just wanted to throw this out there would you turn down a pay raise like that?, should we reject it and hope for another couple dollars risking almost certain death in a few years? What kind of gains do we really expect we can get above that if we say no? Probably not a whole lot I think management is pretty set on their end hence it's taken us to almost the end of the line to get a ta finally, unlike psa put NC has been negotiating for a long time, not like we're just taking the first offer and accepting it there has been a lot of sitting at the table with management for years to try and find a decent agreement for jets, just that usually psa undercuts us and takes the first offer from management without any negotiations negating any progress we make. Just my two cents I understand not everyone agrees with this.
#5418
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,104
Who's say anyone has to go to American? I'm sure Delta would love to pluck all of the American regional WO'ed pilots. Along with United.
This allows many to flow and many to upgrade and get out of PDT. It's not a Career airline anymore. Get your time and move on. Just like Republic Boy did.
This allows many to flow and many to upgrade and get out of PDT. It's not a Career airline anymore. Get your time and move on. Just like Republic Boy did.
Same goes for UAL. Hire 200 guys from Endeavor in two months. Heads would be spinning.
Sounds crazy? Welcome to 2016, it's going to happen and there aren't going to be guys around left to fly at the commuter level by the end of the decade.
#5419
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 2,035
Looking at the contract I have 2 big problems. 1 selling the FO Coming in the following years short by capping pay at 4 years. I know the cap in reality does not matter but how much you are getting paid and I know it is between 36-38 at 4 years and that is low. 2. 10 year contracts don't make sense why so long. Lots of things can change including the economics of aviation. I know people always stress the bad but what if things become good should we not deserve more compensation for helping the company grow a little sooner. I do want to stress though that in the end it is The PDT choice in what they want to do. Good luck guys.
Uhm, question... What do you mean by "if things become good"???
What would you consider >$1,500,000,000.00 net profit per quarter? There is NO need for any regional in this country to agree to concessions of any kind whatsoever. If we can't finally reverse this continual downward trend now, then when will we?
#5420
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 200
Forget the math pal. The fact is with the current offer you will NOT be able to staff your airline. And as a result what you now are being "promised" WILL be withheld. We're all be watching. Good luck
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