HermannGraf

Eat my words?

I been doing this for 19 years and one thing I do know

We have highly qualified FOs that in general do an awesome job. Many times better than many Captains.
The pay scale on the FO side is based on a fast upgrade and that payscale is not up to date with reality.

What do you think you do better than an 8 year FO while he is getting half your pay?

Do you seriously think that he is not as responsible for the safety of the flight as you and that he is not thinking about the safety of the flight at all times and that he will do everything in his power to make sure that flight is completed in a safe manner? Are you aware that he is qualified to take over and become the PIC if you are incapacitated or screwing up seriously? You better as there has been many examples of that. I hold the FOs to a higher standard and believe they are highly qualified and I know that the only difference between a senior FO and a Captain is the time in the company and the opportunity to upgrade or not. It has nothing to do with qualifications ability or quality.

The reason for your extreme pay comparing to the FOs is that you sign for the AC? That is your argument for a 300 to 450% pay comparing with the lowest paid FOs?

Let me tell you that if you screw something up "they" the FAA or the company will go after the FO as much as after you. We have had many examples of that.

Today the FOs are held to the same qualification than Captains with PIC type and an ATP and a min qualification of 1500 hours. That was the old qualification for Captains in 121 operation. I am not saying the Captain should not be paid more than FOs but the FOs pay scales should be about 70% of the captain pay, no less. That is a fair difference for signing for the aircraft.

While the requirements for FOs at 121 ops are many times the old one the pay is the same. I do not believe that is right.

We need to raise the FO payscale substantially. No pilot with 1500 hours ATP and PIC typed should have to start at poverty wages.

I am willing to share with the guys at the bottom to take them up to an acceptable level. You are not. We just have to agree to disagree.

DashTrash

Managements' temporary cure for this is offering signing bonuses to candidates that complete training. I think that this is a disservice to our profession because those bonuses can go away at any time. There is nothing contractual about the signing bonuses. If we are truly going to entice new entrants into this industry we (the pilot groups) and the Unions (our advocates) need to raise first year pay and make it contractual. If we are able to obtain decent first year pay rates, we might be able to raise the remainder of the rates. Also, if the rates are contractual then they are much more difficult to cut and slash!

goodyear859

When I saw things getting bad in the economy, I knew it would be a long road ahead for the airlines. I went back to school and got my Masters. After 3 years on the job, I am making well into the 6 figures. I was told by pilots much smarter than myself that I needed a plan B when the going got tough. That is exactly what I did. I made a plan B for myself and it has worked out. If you are stuck in the airlines, retool yourself and work on your plan B now. It is the only way for things to get better for the airline industry. When things get better, you can move back into flying. It things never get better, you just made the best career move of your life.

block30

Wasn't sure which thread to put this under, but I flew with a check airman* who recently had a check airman meeting. The subject of the difficulty in hiring new regional pilots came up, and it was made known that management is indeed looking at things like multi crew licenses (in the Unites States).

I'm not sure how much traction management will get on that, but I have to imagine they are applying a lot of force, money, and propaganda on our politicians to repeal the ATP law and/or institute multi crew licenses.

*Yes, I realize the "I heard from a check airman" thing is cliche at best, and I'll accept my fair share of abuse for perpetuating that.

flynavyj

And the only way to fight that is for the unions and pilot groups across the country to continuously express that there is no pilot shortage...pilots are simply not willing to work for the wages the regional airlines are offering. They'll argue numbers from universities that are having trouble filling seats because the costs are sky high, and that better pay rates will break their bank and make them uncompetitive...ALPA needs to lobby the hell out of things to make sure the 1500 hour rule stays in place and for once actually make a "win" for the pilot groups out there and improve this profession.

Cubdriver

This summary arrived today in my AIAA news feed, so I thought I'd post it here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GAO Posits Low Pay As Reason For Pilot Shortage.

USA Today (2/28, Jansen) reported on the Government Accountability Office’s (GAO) “mixed findings” in a report on how “airlines could have trouble hiring amid tougher training rules as mandatory retirements at 65 thin the ranks,” and lower average pay fails to lure new pilots. Also, the report says that the FAA put in place new pilot-training rules. FAA Administrator Michael Huerta explained to Congress in February that “the thing that we would have focused on and we did focus in the development of all of these rules is how do we maintain the highest levels of safety.”
The AP (3/1) reported that while the data on the pilot shortage suggest a deficit in pay, there are yet “two other indicators” that suggest “the opposite is true.” For one, according to the report, the GAO found in two different studies that “the large number of qualified pilots that exist, but may be working abroad, in the military or in another occupation, as evidence that there is adequate supply.” Speaking to the possibility that pilots are, in fact, underpaid, Lee Moak, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, stated, “people aren’t going to work for $22,000 again, and the reason they’re not going to do it is they spend $100,000 or so to get their certification, and you can’t live on that amount of money, pay your student loans off and function.”
The Wall Street Journal (3/1, Pasztor, Subscription Publication) reported that the GAO’s report supports claims by labor unions that inadequate pay is responsible for the dearth of qualified pilots.
The New York Times (3/1, Mouawad, Subscription Publication) reported that the GAO made suggestions for improvements that “include increasing wages and bonuses for new hires, helping to pay for pilot training programs, or changing the contractual terms between mainline and regional airlines to help increase revenue at the regional carriers.”
NBC Nightly News (2/28, story 9, 0:40, Williams), Reuters (2/28, Jacobs), the Dallas Morning News (2/28) and other media sources have similar coverage.

CaptainNameless

The problem is less the low pay than the structure in which the low pay is entrenched. The ruse has failed.

Low pay did not stop the regional model for the last 15 years.

Why? Mostly because those in the system already were dumb victims (myself included) who have sunk costs and are already in the middle of the problem, so it is less effort to get into the mess if you're already there, if you've already fallen for the lies. Some have left along the way, but the majority of pilots who started flying with professional intentions prior to 9/11 or age the 65 change are still flying somewhere, many STILL at the regionals, after 5, 10 or 15 years.

So why the failure of new pilots to show up?

Because the ruse is just not fooling them any more.

The only job anyone truly wants is at the majors, and word has gotten out that that is not where YOUR job as a new or fairly new pilot will be, for long enough to discourage you. And new guys look at the backlog of the idiots STILL trying to get that good job after years and years of trying or waiting, and guess what? They get the message that that job is simply not there, and so why bother... why should they become the backfill fodder for an industry where the good job will be out of reach for so long that it may as well be permanent? MLK wrote during the civil rights fight that "justice too long delayed is justice denied." So is a decent flying career. Delay it long enough, and it never really happens does it?

From ExpressJet manager of pilot recruiting speaking to college students:

“This will be a great boost for you and the airline industry,” Robertson told Henderson aviation students and others present for the announcement. “What we’re going to do is come back and give you a guaranteed interview with ExpressJet.”

Robertson said all airlines are currently experiencing a pilot shortage which will only worsen. “Let me assure you that a pilot shortage is here,” he said. “There’s not a regional airline in America that can fill their new-hire classes, including us. This will benefit you.”

Robertson said ExpressJet will provide assistance for the flight students. “We’ll do anything we can to help you get on with a regional airline, plus help you get on with a major airline,” he said. “That’s our major goal.”

That's their goal? Good grief, they don't know when it's over, this guy thinks it's 1998 out there. How will making $30K-40K for who knows how long while you wait for a major to call benefit you?

They better think of something else soon.

John 3:16

29-year USAF fighter pilot, now retiring, 50 years old, ATP, 4,000 hours, haven't flown since 2006 (due to staff and command jobs that take you away from the cockpit).

Reading this thread is pretty eye-watering. I haven't gotten a call from a major and have been considering doing a stint in the regionals to get current/qualified, thus making me more marketable to a major.

Have gotten multiple calls from multiple regionals. I think that if I can pass the testing part of the interview that I could basically pick my regional to work for.

Looking for advice - am I smoking crack with this gameplan? Should I just be patient and assume a major will give me a call?

Would really appreciate any thoughts.

galaxy flyer

You need to get back in an airplane before a major will call.

GF

Feng

Do it, get some hours at the regional of your choice. Hit up your buddies at the majors. If you don't get a call within a year, quit. While you're at the regionals, try to drop most of your trips and focus on QOL. Don't sweat about calling in sick or missed assignments if you don't feel like going in. The money is **** anyways. In the unlikely event you're asked to resign, you'll be picked up at another regional within minutes.

When you're asked why you switched regionals, make something up and you'll be alright.