He (John 3-16) should also understand there are many high grade captains at just about all the US regionals that are stuck there for life. It's a (poor) gamble, and I assure you there is stiff competition for jobs at the majors.

 

So, we all agree; the entry level pay is far to low to attract all but the most ambitions who can and will find a way to survive on that kind of pay. Some make just enough to be stuck for life. The "I got mine so wait your turn" attitude has exacerbated us into this situation. And no matter how Shiny the jet, low QOL will not bring new people into the industry.

Now what do we do with this information?

 

It sure is funny how 'paying your dues' only gets steeper and harder. Why does every generation think they had it horribly and punish the next? Compared to what I expect, I'm frequently let down by the character and integrity of mainline pilots I know. On the other hand, I'm always shocked at how GOOD the quality of the average regional crew is. Now that regional crews on E195s are flying mainline missions, what gives?

 

I really don't know why you keep preaching for anyone at a regional having to take pay cuts? There are no overpaid regional pilots period!! If you're not management, I don't understand your need to keep insinuating one group needs to take a pay cut in order to give a pay increase to another? This is typical management "divide and conquer" tactics. The low pay for new hires at all regionals will have to come up if management really wants to resolve their inability to attract those new hires... NO one will need to take pay cuts to make this happen!

 

Can you provide more details on how this can come to reality? My understanding of pilot pay is that management says, we're giving your pilot group $100M. The pilot union (composed of very senior pilots) then come up with a pay scale, present it to its pilots to vote, and that's how the scale comes about.

Now, if that is the case, then at the very best, there will be no increase for the senior years, particularly at the captain side of the scale, and an increase on the low FO side. At the worst, the seniors will take a pay cut, and move that excess over to the low FO side.

It seem to me to be the "let's help our own" mentality. This doesn't seem to be a "divide and conquer" mentality. For you to suggest this makes me think that NOBODY is going to give up any pay to help out the little guys coming through the door.

Correct me if I'm wrong or don't understand how this pay scale becomes reality.

 

If they say that, do not believe them. Management brings a pot of money into the room, but they never reveal how much is inside. Pilot negotiators try to get all of it, but if they fail, management hauls the remaining amount back to the office.

 

Thank you for saving me time explaining.

You get it and most do but we have the ones at the top of the scales or getting there that do not and that because they are selfish and greedy. They never had to survive on FO Regional pay for 10 years. They are the ones not willing to give up anything to help anyone else and they demand to get equal raise if the ones at the bottom get any. They are making six figures plus at the Regional level and claim they are lowly paid (every pilot at the Regionals are badly paid they claim) at the same time they do not give a **** about the guys making 25K at the bottom. Reality of things is that the Regional business model can't afford to pay all guys six figures. If it would then there would be no purpose for the majors to have Regional doing their flying. The Regionals gets the flying because they can operate cheaper and that because they pay less. We all get that and understand that there is not much more room, there is some but not much but there is a lot to do about the pay scales and how unfair the division of the available cash for the crew has been done. There is no other industry with the extreme of two people working together doing the same job while one getting paid 4 to 5 times what the other one is making. People should not make the same, not even for the same job, that is not my point, seniority should pay more and more responsibility should pay more but never 4 to 5 times what the guys doing the same job at the bottom is making and specifically not at the Regional level where the salaries at the bottom are ridiculously low. The guys that believes getting 4 or 5 times what the bottom guy is getting is right while the bottom guy is on food stamps are the guys that also believes it is right for a CEO to make in one year 80 times what the lowest paid pilot is making and have the arrogance to tell the guy at the bottom that he is the problem. He will even tell him, if you do not like the pay don't take the job.
Well guess what, there are not many taking the job anymore and if we do not find solutions the highest paid one will also lose his job (with all that follows) because without new pilots attrition will kill every Regional out there.

 

The majors are rolling in BILLIONS $$$ IN PROFITS. There is plenty of money available if they want to use it. If not, fine. Then there will be no new pilots. Done. If they really want pilots to staff the regionals, they will need to pay a lot more in the future because the majors (by the very creation and expansion of the regionals) killed the dream of actually getting a job at the majors someday... THEY DID THIS. THIS IS THEIR MESS. Reallocation of payroll is no solution, you're speaking as if that is a fixed number. Tell the majors to either bring a lot more money in to get pilots on property, or give them something other than lip-service and false dreams and promises of a mainline job... someday... when they get around to being able to give you one, after all their buddies and CP friends and kids and interns have been accommodated.

Kill the dream and guess what? Well, we're seeing what! No more dumb, hopeful, someday-I'm-gonna-fly-a-widebody-to-Europe kids showing up to learn to fly anymore. Well, they killed the dream, it's DEAD, and this is what it looks like. No new pilots is what it looks like. They made the regionals a stagnant, hard to escape career mud-pit. They can live with the consequences.

I hope they don't touch regional FO pay by a penny. I hope every regional is dead or part of mainline just for pilot supply in 10 years or less. That's the new dream.

Graf, you have to be management. Only management would think to solve the problem your way.

 

Thank you for saving me time by explaining that.

You get it, and most non management actual pilot flight crews do. We have taken it in the shorts long enough, and now it has finally come to a point where the worst regionals are canceling flights, and even grounding entire fleets of aircraft due to lack of staffing. If the major airlines that need/want the feed would like to continue getting it, they will need to come to the plate with MORE money. They are making BILLIONS in profits, and don't need to line their pockets by getting us to keep working for poverty wage! Period, end of the story!!!

 

[QUOTE]29-year USAF fighter pilot, now retiring, 50 years old, ATP, 4,000 hours, haven't flown since 2006 (due to staff and command jobs that take you away from the cockpit).

Reading this thread is pretty eye-watering. I haven't gotten a call from a major and have been considering doing a stint in the regionals to get current/qualified, thus making me more marketable to a major./QUOTE]

Have u Applied at Atlas???